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    When is it the coach and when is it the players?

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    danfran
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    When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by danfran on Tue 23 Sep 2014 - 12:55

    Heard an interesting conversation with Mike Greenburg on ESPN this a.m. The topic was raised that certain teams seem to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. When things like muffed punts and blown coverages and 15 penalties occur with certain teams, the inevitable response is "it's the players making the mistakes, not the coaches". Yet, when we see a team that is fundamentally sound we say the team is well coached. So which is it? Is a coach the cause when he has a sloppy team?
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by NickSINYC on Tue 23 Sep 2014 - 15:53

    danfran wrote:Heard an interesting conversation with Mike Greenburg on ESPN this a.m. The topic was raised that certain teams seem to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. When things like muffed punts and blown coverages and 15 penalties occur with certain teams, the inevitable response is "it's the players making the mistakes, not the coaches". Yet, when we see a team that is fundamentally sound we say the team is well coached. So which is it? Is a coach the cause when he has a sloppy team?
    I made this point in a different thread. When you see the same mistakes year after year with different groups of players the blame needs to land on the head coach IMO

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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by soj on Tue 23 Sep 2014 - 16:52

    NickSINYC wrote:
    danfran wrote:Heard an interesting conversation with Mike Greenburg on ESPN this a.m. The topic was raised that certain teams seem to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. When things like muffed punts and blown coverages and 15 penalties occur with certain teams, the inevitable response is "it's the players making the mistakes, not the coaches". Yet, when we see a team that is fundamentally sound we say the team is well coached. So which is it? Is a coach the cause when he has a sloppy team?
    I made this point in a different thread. When you see the same mistakes year after year with different groups of players the blame needs to land on the head coach IMO

    Agree, I just posted that I am of the opinion that Rex is part of the problem not the solution.  While this team is better talent wise then last years they are still not a playoff team... but what is disconcerting is the lack of discipline, the mental mistakes and poor execution and that goes to the HC. 

    I been a Rex supporter but he is alot like his DAD a great Def mind but sucko HC....
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by danfran on Wed 24 Sep 2014 - 13:08

    Cant argue the discipline point. Certain coaches don't seem to stress it-and as a result seem to wind up with teams that are penalized a lot. Also agree that Rex isn't a good HC, but an excellent DC.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by Superman55 on Wed 24 Sep 2014 - 15:00

    danfran wrote:Cant argue the discipline point. Certain coaches don't seem to stress it-and as a result seem to wind up with teams that are penalized a lot. Also agree that Rex isn't a good HC, but an excellent DC.

    The last two super bowl winners, led the league in penalties...Seahawks and Ravens...
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by danfran on Wed 24 Sep 2014 - 19:45

    Superman55 wrote:
    danfran wrote:Cant argue the discipline point. Certain coaches don't seem to stress it-and as a result seem to wind up with teams that are penalized a lot. Also agree that Rex isn't a good HC, but an excellent DC.

    The last two super bowl winners, led the league in penalties...Seahawks and Ravens...

    So you're saying that those teams are undisciplined? I don't think the Seahawks are. I think they play a very tight defense that just draws a lot of penalties.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by HYATT™ on Wed 24 Sep 2014 - 21:00

    There is a fine line to walk between undisciplined and aggressive enough.
    It requires BOTH.
    1.) A good enough disciplinarian HC and more importantly - and what may ACTUALLY be the problem in NJ - assistant coaches.
    AND
    2.) Talented enough players that they can do what's asked of them from an effort perspective and STILL not go over the line while trying to perform at those top levels of "Y'all".
    (Give your all.)

    Right now, while there are some very good players on both sides of the ball, the penalties are coming, in part, from players who are NOT that good, trying their best to live up to Rex's and his assistant coach's expectations.
    Winters, Colon, the DBs - but it IS kinda strange that players like Richardson are also making boneheaded mental errors.
    Ah, youth, wasted on the young, so often.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 16:48

    Dan Quinn(who actually grew up miles from where the Jets facility is now) was my choice for HC if Ryan got fired after last season. Well, it appears as if Gary Myers of the NY Daily News is getting a head start on Rex being ousted.







    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/sunday-morning-qb-ex-jets-gm-mike-tannenbaum-double-agent-article-1.1955079
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by SackExchange on Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 22:28

    Quinn would be intriguing. It would be following one defensive coach with another, but certainly a different personality than Rex. He also would bring in a 4-man front.

    Now, the Jets are stacked at DL, more than LB. But do the pieces fit a 4-3?
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by HYATT™ on Sun 28 Sep 2014 - 2:09

    SackExchange wrote:Quinn would be intriguing. It would be following one defensive coach with another, but certainly a different personality than Rex. He also would bring in a 4-man front.

    Now, the Jets are stacked at DL, more than LB. But do the pieces fit a 4-3?
    Depends on what KIND of 4-3 you want.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Tue 30 Sep 2014 - 14:52

    SackExchange wrote:Quinn would be intriguing. It would be following one defensive coach with another, but certainly a different personality than Rex. He also would bring in a 4-man front.

    Now, the Jets are stacked at DL, more than LB. But do the pieces fit a 4-3?




    Quinn was also the defensive line coach here under Mangini for a couple of seasons. He has experience with the 3-4. It's similar to Dunbar coming over from the Vikings 4-3. He had experience playing in a 3-4 under Buddy Ryan.





    My favorite football book Collision Low Crossers Very Happy , is once again showing how Rex is not a very good HC. A nice man. A motivator. A defensive genius. However, that book exposed his many flaws for the head job. Flaws his own assistants began to acknowledge.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by NickSINYC on Tue 30 Sep 2014 - 15:11

    football51 wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:Quinn would be intriguing. It would be following one defensive coach with another, but certainly a different personality than Rex. He also would bring in a 4-man front.

    Now, the Jets are stacked at DL, more than LB. But do the pieces fit a 4-3?




    Quinn was also the defensive line coach here under Mangini for a couple of seasons. He has experience with the 3-4. It's similar to Dunbar coming over from the Vikings 4-3. He had experience playing in a 3-4 under Buddy Ryan.





    My favorite football book Collision  Low Crossers Very Happy , is once again showing how Rex is not a very good HC. A nice man. A motivator. A defensive genius. However, that book exposed his many flaws for the head job. Flaws his own assistants began to acknowledge.


    They should run a disclaimer on the bottom of the screen during Jet games like they do for actors playing doctors in commercials.    " Hi I am Rex Ryan a DC playing a HC on TV during this game"
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Tue 30 Sep 2014 - 15:48

    NickSINYC wrote:
    football51 wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:Quinn would be intriguing. It would be following one defensive coach with another, but certainly a different personality than Rex. He also would bring in a 4-man front.

    Now, the Jets are stacked at DL, more than LB. But do the pieces fit a 4-3?




    Quinn was also the defensive line coach here under Mangini for a couple of seasons. He has experience with the 3-4. It's similar to Dunbar coming over from the Vikings 4-3. He had experience playing in a 3-4 under Buddy Ryan.





    My favorite football book Collision  Low Crossers Very Happy , is once again showing how Rex is not a very good HC. A nice man. A motivator. A defensive genius. However, that book exposed his many flaws for the head job. Flaws his own assistants began to acknowledge.


    They should run a disclaimer on the bottom of the screen during Jet games like they do for actors playing doctors in commercials.    " Hi I am Rex Ryan a DC playing a HC on TV during this game"










    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 2h 1 hour ago
    Remember, D. Harris (7 targets/7 rec/124 yds/TD) responsible for half of DETs pass production. That's coaching. Not secondary problems.


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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 18:38

    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 10h 10 hours ago
    Annoying #NYJ usage: Ivory/CJ having identical amount of targets in pass game. Cumberland/Salas with more targets than Amaro. Powell benched



    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 10h 10 hours ago
    Replaced by Chris Johnson inside runs Sad RT @Alfano915: @TurnOnTheJets what happened to this masterful screen game we were going to run?




    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 8h 8 hours ago
    Reminder: Lacking talent in certain areas is not excuse to be poorly coached. Good coaching maximizes strengths, doesn't expose weaknesses




    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 8h 8 hours ago
    #Jets are unquestionably short on talent in multiple areas. They've also been one of the worst coached teams in the #NFL through 5 games






    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 8h 8 hours ago
    Somebody show me a smart in-game adjustment they've made or how they've adjusted regularly being scorched on the same schemes repeatedly



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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 18:40

    Damien Woody @damienwoody · 38m 38 minutes ago
    For all u killing Geno, here’s a question…..name one offensive player that has been developed since Rex has been here? #Jets



    Damien Woody @damienwoody · 39m 39 minutes ago
    I love Rex but it’s a legit question #Jets
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by danfran on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 18:54

    football51 wrote:Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  38m 38 minutes ago
    For all u killing Geno, here’s a question…..name one offensive player that has been developed since Rex has been here? #Jets



    Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  39m 39 minutes ago
    I love Rex but it’s a legit question #Jets

    I don't think developing offensive players is Rex's strength. To be blunt, he knows as much about it as I do. Rex probably should have stayed a DC (which he will be again, as soon as next year) where he excels. Not HC material.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 19:00

    danfran wrote:
    football51 wrote:Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  38m 38 minutes ago
    For all u killing Geno, here’s a question…..name one offensive player that has been developed since Rex has been here? #Jets



    Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  39m 39 minutes ago
    I love Rex but it’s a legit question #Jets

    I don't think developing offensive players is Rex's strength. To be blunt, he knows as much about it as I do. Rex probably should have stayed a DC (which he will be again, as soon as next year) where he excels. Not HC material.





    I wonder if he'd make a good college HC?
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by Superman55 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 23:00

    NickSINYC wrote:
    danfran wrote:Heard an interesting conversation with Mike Greenburg on ESPN this a.m. The topic was raised that certain teams seem to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. When things like muffed punts and blown coverages and 15 penalties occur with certain teams, the inevitable response is "it's the players making the mistakes, not the coaches". Yet, when we see a team that is fundamentally sound we say the team is well coached. So which is it? Is a coach the cause when he has a sloppy team?
    I made this point in a different thread. When you see the same mistakes year after year with different groups of players the blame needs to land on the head coach IMO


    I agree with you for the most part.

    I say that to say this, teams that play aggressive are the ones that win, which is probably why the last 3 super bowl winners led the league in penalties. But our penalties aren't usually playing aggressive, its 12 men on the field, false starts, illegal procedures...stupid penalties that destroy drives. We have way too many of those. You can't play afraid to make penalties, IMO, but you can't shoot yourself in the foot at inopportune times too much either. We have way too much of that.
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by Superman55 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 23:12

    football51 wrote:
    danfran wrote:
    football51 wrote:Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  38m 38 minutes ago
    For all u killing Geno, here’s a question…..name one offensive player that has been developed since Rex has been here? #Jets



    Damien Woody @damienwoody  ·  39m 39 minutes ago
    I love Rex but it’s a legit question #Jets

    I don't think developing offensive players is Rex's strength. To be blunt, he knows as much about it as I do. Rex probably should have stayed a DC (which he will be again, as soon as next year) where he excels. Not HC material.


    I wonder if he'd make a good college HC?

    Seriously?  Dude, what recruit wouldn't sign to be in what he's selling.  He'd put Saban to bed with his recruiting speech.

    Paid professionals are inspired by his words, I have no doubt 17-19 year olds wouldn't be all over that.

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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by cysporsche on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 11:54

    The first bad indication that Rex might not be a good HC choice, is when Ozzie Newsome & the Ravens had zero interest to promote him from DC to HC. They passed on Rex for a reason, that we are just figuring out now ?

    Go Jets...Cyborg
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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by Superman55 on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 12:07

    cysporsche wrote:The first bad indication that Rex might not be a good HC choice, is when Ozzie Newsome & the Ravens had zero interest to promote him from DC to HC. They passed on Rex for a reason, that we are just figuring out now ?

    Go Jets...Cyborg

    That's not true.  newsome wanted Rex and the owner wanted Harbough.  He was down to the final 2 and they selected Harbough over him...the players were very upset with the decision at the time.

    "By now, Bisciotti's reasons to go with Harbaugh over Ryan are well documented. The owner, who has had great success in the business world, wasn't just looking for a head coach but for a CEO for his organization, a polished and humble leader who could relate to players and coaches but also corporations and sponsors."

    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-11-24/sports/bs-sp-ravens-coaches-feature-1124-20131123_1_rex-ryan-john-harbaugh-ravens-and-jets

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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by WilliesDad on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 12:10

    Superman55 wrote:
    NickSINYC wrote:
    danfran wrote:Heard an interesting conversation with Mike Greenburg on ESPN this a.m. The topic was raised that certain teams seem to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. When things like muffed punts and blown coverages and 15 penalties occur with certain teams, the inevitable response is "it's the players making the mistakes, not the coaches". Yet, when we see a team that is fundamentally sound we say the team is well coached. So which is it? Is a coach the cause when he has a sloppy team?
    I made this point in a different thread. When you see the same mistakes year after year with different groups of players the blame needs to land on the head coach IMO


    I agree with you for the most part.  

    I say that to say this, teams that play aggressive are the ones that win, which is probably why the last 3 super bowl winners led the league in penalties.  But our penalties aren't usually playing aggressive, its 12 men on the field, false starts, illegal procedures...stupid penalties that destroy drives.  We have way too many of those.  You can't play afraid to make penalties, IMO, but you can't shoot yourself in the foot at inopportune times too much either.  We have way too much of that.


    Absolutely correct. That is a matter of instilling discipline and that falls squarely on the coaching staff, who get their lead from the head coach. I love Rex - he bleeds green more than any other coach I can remember - and I really wanted him to succeed. But this year has made it clear to me that he, at this time, is not suited to be a head coach - no discipline, no oversight, no input/control of the offense. Loyal BEYOND a fault to his players and to his organization.

    I suspect that he might get another HC job down the road, but I don't think he will behave any different than during his tenure here - he won't be like BB who seemed to learn from his time with the Browns. Any success he may have in the future with another team will be more due to personnel and those around him - coaches, mgmt, than to his HC abilities, sorry to say.

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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by cysporsche on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 16:23

    I can't see Rex coaching College kids, and I doubt any smart NFL owner would hire him as HC. His true calling in life is to follow in the Ryan dynasty as a NFL Defensive Coordinator. Thats his true calling, he's not smart enough to be a NFL HC.

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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by football51 on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 16:31

    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 17h 17 hours ago
    Catching up with Vick quotes - So now we got Vick saying he doesn't work hard in practice, Geno missing meetings, Demario saying team...


    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 17h 17 hours ago
    ...doesn't watch film and practice well, Mangold backing it up. Sheldon saying there are defensive communication issues...




    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 17h 17 hours ago
    But this is a well coached team? Maybe the #Jets conspiracists got it backwards, maybe Rex is trying to sabotage himself to get fired...


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    Re: When is it the coach and when is it the players?

    Post by danfran on Thu 9 Oct 2014 - 19:11

    football51 wrote:Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets  ·  17h 17 hours ago
    Catching up with Vick quotes - So now we got Vick saying he doesn't work hard in practice, Geno missing meetings, Demario saying team...


    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets  ·  17h 17 hours ago
    ...doesn't watch film and practice well, Mangold backing it up. Sheldon saying there are defensive communication issues...




    Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets  ·  17h 17 hours ago
    But this is a well coached team? Maybe the #Jets conspiracists got it backwards, maybe Rex is trying to sabotage himself to get fired...

    Man, it sounds like the rats are deserting a sinking ship....


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