When is it the coach and when is it the players?

Blindsidebrick wrote:

HYATT wrote:

SackExchange wrote:When he was drafted, Jeffery looked more like a guard than a WR.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Depends on who's eyes yer looking through.
Was there ever ANY doubt expressed in HYATT's posts on Alshon Jeffery when we were all discussing drafting WRs in 2012 and people were lining up behind their favorite horses?

Blackmon, Floyd, Wright, Jenkins, Quick, Hill, Jeffery, Broyles, Randle, Posey, Graham, Sanu, Hilton, Givens, Benjamin, Adams, Wylie, Wright, Martin, Toon, etc. is how they came off the board but some folks wanted McNutt high, and others wanted Criner and Streeter a lot higher than they went too.
HYATT, if the Mad Cow hasn't eaten away too much of his brain, recalls expressing his desire to see Hill, Jeffery, Quick, & Wright be considered, in that order - and defended Jeffery in multiple debates against this:

WEAKNESSES
Jeffery is an elite jump-ball prospect, but he does not stand out as fast on tape and is such a long strider that at times he looks to be moving in slow motion.

(HYATT equated him with another long-strider who moves with apparent slowness which is actually effortless gliding - Larry Fitzgerald.)

Speed will never be his game, but he needs to become more comfortable in his routes to work the corner and truly gain separation. The development of his route-running skills will be the key to his success. Jeffery was bit uncoordinated early in his career and only began to look comfortable in his body toward the end of his collegiate career.

(Yeah, it took all of 5 SECONDS for Alshon Jeffery to suddenly get "UN-uncoordinated" in CHI.   )

The only mistake HYATT made was in believing Hill could become an even better WR than Jeffery, but acknowledged Hill's deficit of experience at GT and longer development cycle.


As for Kerley, HYATT reflects back on Laveranues Coles and how playing with Favre turned him into the STUD of the 2008 WR core.
Who plays QB certainly has an impact on receiver production.
Kerley is not exactly Pro Bowl material, but with no alternative WRs on the field he's going to get a certain number of looks and catch a certain number of balls he wouldn't otherwise on some other teams.
Does HYATT believe he is NFL caliber?
In part, because he's doing the job already, but ask HYATT if he'd replace Kerley in a heartbeat if an even marginally better WR came available and the answer will be "yes, most assuredly".

You still love Stephen Hill, and you think Kerley's a marginal WR?

I don't care where Kerley's playing, he's demonstrated that he belongs in the NFL. And he belongs on this team. I would argue he'd be a solid #3 on any NFL team.

He's so far better than Stephen Hill, I can barely type this without laughing.

While I hate that Hyatt refers to himself as the third person and idk know or care about his views on hill, I do believe his take on Kerlely is spot on.

If you believe otherwise than I would argue ur some combination of being a loyal fan (aka a homer) or just lack awareness about the standard for the rest of the league. Obv that's just my opinion but I believe I gave pretty good evidence of why I believe that in my last post when I responded to 51.

Kerely is solid to good but no where near great, even for a slot wr.

The blame here rests squarely on coaching staff and players equally. Rex prefers to delegate authority which he should. No one individual can keep watch of 48+ players. That's the responsibility of his staff. Rex trusts his staff to handle things that are surfacing. He has the loyalty from his players; however it's not translating onto the field. No team plays a perfect game. We have yet to show the capabilities of overcoming mistakes. Our setup from day one of his era was to play pressure defense and run the ball, and he's attempted to build his team that way. This is what keeps up in most games. The key with this method of playing is ball security. It's a way of wearing opponents down to the point of submission. When a Rex Ryan's team turns the ball over it puts pressure on the defense to get off the field. Once an offense score off the short field the pressure shifts back to Rex's offense to respond. Now players are trying to make a play instead of playing within their assignment. They're thinking and not reacting. The mistakes begin to add up, and the margin begins to grow. In short, you get these results: missed assignments, blown coverages, and composure gone. I wish there was a quick fix but it comes down to everyone doing their job.

On that horrible 2012 team with Sparano as OC, Kerley caught 56 passes and averaged 14.8. He missed 4 games last year. now, if he got to play with some of the qb's listed here(leading their elite offenses), his numbers would be quite different. You're only as good as the guy getting you the ball. I think fans would hold Kerley in higher regard if Brady, Peyton, or Brees were throwing him passes. No one called him elite....... I just didn't like the hyperbole comment about him "not being able to see the field" on those other teams. Kerley is the least of this team's worries. IMO, he'll be one of Idzik's first resigns after the season is over.

football51 wrote:On that horrible 2012 team with Sparano as OC, Kerley caught 56 passes and averaged 14.8. He missed 4 games last year. now, if he got to play with some of the qb's listed here(leading their elite offenses), his numbers would be quite different. You're only as good as the guy getting you the ball. I think fans would hold Kerley in higher regard if Brady, Peyton, or Brees were throwing him passes. No one called him elite....... I just didn't like the hyperbole comment about him "not being able to see the field" on those other teams. Kerley is the least of this team's worries. IMO, he'll be one of Idzik's first resigns after the season is over.

It's not hyperbole about Kerley not seeing the field on the teams I mentioned, it's pretty accurate IMO. The fact u disagree suggests to me that ur expectations are low about offensive production from the slot Bc u have watched the jets for the past 5 seasons and Kerely is one of VERY FEW players w the capacity to actually make a play.

If it was "hyperbole" than I wouldn't be able to list a number teams w specific players at the number 3 wr position that are better than Kerely who is our 2!!!! This is in fact the exact opposite of hyperbole.

Speaking of which, I'm very suprised that I have mentioned that no other team in football has not had a 1000 yrd wrs in the past 5 seasons and no one else acknowledges this, which kinda drives me crazy.

Atljet60 wrote:The blame here rests squarely on coaching staff and players equally. Rex prefers to delegate authority which he should. No one individual can keep watch of 48+ players. That's the responsibility of his staff. Rex trusts his staff to handle things that are surfacing. He has the loyalty from his players; however it's not translating onto the field. No team plays a perfect game. We have yet to show the capabilities of overcoming mistakes. Our setup from day one of his era was to play pressure defense and run the ball, and he's attempted to build his team that way. This is what keeps up in most games. The key with this method of playing is ball security. It's a way of wearing opponents down to the point of submission. When a Rex Ryan's team turns the ball over it puts pressure on the defense to get off the field. Once an offense score off the short field the pressure shifts back to Rex's offense to respond. Now players are trying to make a play instead of playing within their assignment. They're thinking and not reacting. The mistakes begin to add up, and the margin begins to grow. In short, you get these results: missed
assignments, blown coverages, and composure gone. I wish there was a quick fix but it comes down to everyone doing their job.

I totally agree that offensive production effects defensive production and vise versa. But the idea that talent doesn't matter and its mostly "coaching" is a total joke IMO.

The jets have an amazing run D and leads the league in sacks because of their outstanding front 7 talent that they have spent 3 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, and a 3rd round pick on combined w some key FA signings. Talent directly effects production. It's just that simple.

Does Geno "force the ball" at times? Your damn right he does!!! Because IMO it's either that, get sacked, or throw his millionth incompletion Bc no one is open!!! The exact same thing happened w Sanchez and will happen w Vick and all the other qbs we roll out there w this group of "guys" playing wr.

Would and elite Qb like Brees or manning or Brady do better w this group of guys? Obviously they would but IMO its totally ridiculous to compair hall of Fame qbs to a 2nd yr pro still trying to build confidence in himself and prove he belongs in the league. A young Qb needs coaching and talent around him to develop. Geno has decent coaching w Marty but very little talent.

I would like to think that Geno's problems stem from having no open receivers, because that is relatively fixable. However, this isn't college and receivers don't run around uncovered. You have to know the route the receiver is running, and if the receiver has half a step on the DB, he IS open and has to be hit with a pass that only he can catch.

Geno has lost his confidence out there, and therefore is unwilling to throw the ball to anyone who isn't wide open, for fear of throwing a pick, which means that he holds the ball too long and the whole thing falls apart, ending with a sack or an uncatchable ball sailing far downfield. It would help if we had a OL that could give Geno a nice stable passing pocket, but we don't so he needs to get rid of the ball quicker, and he doesn't seem able to do that with any consistency.

GratefulJet wrote:I would like to think that Geno's problems stem from having no open receivers, because that is relatively fixable. However, this isn't college and receivers don't run around uncovered. You have to know the route the receiver is running, and if the receiver has half a step on the DB, he IS open and has to be hit with a pass that only he can catch.

Geno has lost his confidence out there, and therefore is unwilling to throw the ball to anyone who isn't wide open, for fear of throwing a pick, which means that he holds the ball too long and the whole thing falls apart, ending with a sack or an uncatchable ball sailing far downfield. It would help if we had a OL that could give Geno a nice stable passing pocket, but we don't so he needs to get rid of the ball quicker, and he doesn't seem able to do that with any consistency.

A exactly how much time does he need? He has had plenty of opportunities to get rid of the ball in every game except the SD game but continues to hold the ball forever even when he see the blitz coming. Ask yourself when was the last time you saw him go to his hot receiver? Just saying...

I don't really don't understand the logic in the 2 posts above. Sure windows are smaller then they are in college but is it a coincidence that the best qbs have some of the best wrs? Is it a coincidence that agianst the broncos that 16 of Geno's 23 comp ( went to the 2 guys on the (just under 70%) went to the two guys w arguably the most amount of recieving talent on the team?

IMO this. Organization needs to stop looking for "the guy"and just start acquiring offense of talent to support whoever they have a QB. That way once "the guy" comes along they can actually evaluate him accurately Because at this point it's almost impossible to say any quarterback would be successful on this team.

On a positive note it's nice to see Amaro might actually be the goods.

Polishjetfan wrote:I don't really don't understand the logic in the 2 posts above. Sure windows are smaller then they are in college but is it a coincidence that the best qbs have some of the best wrs? Is it a coincidence that agianst the broncos that 16 of Geno's 23 comp ( went to the 2 guys on the (just under 70%) went to the two guys w arguably the most amount of recieving talent on the team?

IMO this. Organization needs to stop looking for "the guy"and just start acquiring offense of talent to support whoever they have a QB. That way once "the guy" comes along they can actually evaluate him accurately Because at this point it's almost impossible to say any quarterback would be successful on this team.

On a positive note it's nice to see Amaro might actually be the goods.

Amaro is looking like an A/A+ pick if he keeps it up. Really happy for him. He has to be proud he leads the team in receptions. I am sure that's exactly where he hopes to be the remainder of his career. Will be interesting.

GratefulJet wrote:I would like to think that Geno's problems stem from having no open receivers, because that is relatively fixable. However, this isn't college and receivers don't run around uncovered. You have to know the route the receiver is running, and if the receiver has half a step on the DB, he IS open and has to be hit with a pass that only he can catch.

Geno has lost his confidence out there, and therefore is unwilling to throw the ball to anyone who isn't wide open, for fear of throwing a pick, which means that he holds the ball too long and the whole thing falls apart, ending with a sack or an uncatchable ball sailing far downfield. It would help if we had a OL that could give Geno a nice stable passing pocket, but we don't so he needs to get rid of the ball quicker, and he doesn't seem able to do that with any consistency.

This is what I'm seeing, too. I think he's struggling to adjust to NFL defenses. But with that said, he hasn't had Decker most of the year, and the running game has stunk. That certainly doesn't help matters.

Blindsidebrick wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I would like to think that Geno's problems stem from having no open receivers, because that is relatively fixable. However, this isn't college and receivers don't run around uncovered. You have to know the route the receiver is running, and if the receiver has half a step on the DB, he IS open and has to be hit with a pass that only he can catch.

Geno has lost his confidence out there, and therefore is unwilling to throw the ball to anyone who isn't wide open, for fear of throwing a pick, which means that he holds the ball too long and the whole thing falls apart, ending with a sack or an uncatchable ball sailing far downfield. It would help if we had a OL that could give Geno a nice stable passing pocket, but we don't so he needs to get rid of the ball quicker, and he doesn't seem able to do that with any consistency.

This is what I'm seeing, too. I think he's struggling to adjust to NFL defenses. But with that said, he hasn't had Decker most of the year, and the running game has stunk. That certainly doesn't help matters.

To some extent, this is a chicken and egg situation. The reason the running game stinks is because good defenses have been stacking the box and daring Geno to beat them through the air. They've seen how tentative he is, how long he holds the ball, how afraid he is to throw the ball to anyone who hasn't achieved 5 yards of separation. They know that they can man up on our wides and to Geno's eyes, those guys are covered. Result: sack or throwaway when we pass, stuff when we run.

Blindsidebrick wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I would like to think that Geno's problems stem from having no open receivers, because that is relatively fixable. However, this isn't college and receivers don't run around uncovered. You have to know the route the receiver is running, and if the receiver has half a step on the DB, he IS open and has to be hit with a pass that only he can catch.

Geno has lost his confidence out there, and therefore is unwilling to throw the ball to anyone who isn't wide open, for fear of throwing a pick, which means that he holds the ball too long and the whole thing falls apart, ending with a sack or an uncatchable ball sailing far downfield. It would help if we had a OL that could give Geno a nice stable passing pocket, but we don't so he needs to get rid of the ball quicker, and he doesn't seem able to do that with any consistency.

This is what I'm seeing, too. I think he's struggling to adjust to NFL defenses. But with that said, he hasn't had Decker most of the year, and the running game has stunk. That certainly doesn't help matters.

We also dont have a game changer on offense or defense (especially in the back 4).  Whether you wanted DJax or not, we need someone like DJax, Percy Harvin, Santana Moss (circa 5 years ago), Antonio Brown, Sproles, etc, etc that can get separation and take it to the house.

I really think adding DJax would have helped us a ton, or at least targeting someone in the draft with similar skill sets (Bruce Ellington or it would have been nice if Saunders was that guy).

People can say having a #2 WR wasn't important, but CJ2k hasnt been in the passing game as much as I thought he would, Kerley has struggled this year for some reason, Amaro only recently emerged, and Decker has been banged up.

I still think we badly need some infusion of talent at WR, someone who can flat out burn down the field...I'm saying that regardless who our QB is next year.

Every time I (foolishly) read an article by Manish Mehta, I can just feel the hate he has for Idzik. It amazing how getting shutout has affected this guy. He writes that Rex will be made a scapegoat.......... where were his hard hitting articles on Tannenbaum in 2011 & 2012 hurting poor Rex. Oh, that's right, back then he attacked Rex because it was Tannenbaum and Pettine who fed him information. I can't wait to get things right with this team and shut people like Mehta up once and for all .

football51 wrote:Every time I (foolishly) read an article by Manish Mehta, I can just feel the hate he has for Idzik. It amazing how getting shutout has affected this guy. He writes that Rex will be made a scapegoat.......... where were his hard hitting articles on Tannenbaum in 2011 & 2012 hurting poor Rex. Oh, that's right, back then he attacked Rex because it was Tannenbaum and Pettine who fed him information. I can't wait to get things right with this team and shut people like Mehta up once and for all .

This will be you by the time that happens:

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
Majority of #Jets fans will always side with Rex because of personality and 09/10. They'd let him run through 10 GMs, OCs, QBs, DCs...




Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
...so it is uphill battle to criticize him or give him blame or just think he is replaceable as a HC, which he is.





Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
Don't tell me 15-26 over 41 games isn't replaceable. I'll take HC who can do that but at least develop QB or foster an environment that does





Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
Rex is a great defensive mind but HC is responsible for entire team, not just one side of ball. Overall, he is barely in top half of HCs...





Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
...in NFL and he is in year 6, so yes patience is shorter with him and he is on less of a rope that others who have been here shorter time




Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
In today's league, do you hire a HC who can develop, improve QBs/offenses like Trestman or Arians or a DL/defensive guy? You go O every day






Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · Oct 13
Rex is 15-29 since week 14 of 2011 season...when does the goodwill from 09/10 stop? // Rant over. #OnToNewEngland

football51 wrote:Every time I (foolishly) read an article by Manish Mehta, I can just feel the hate he has for Idzik. It amazing how getting shutout has affected this guy. He writes that Rex will be made a scapegoat.......... where were his hard hitting articles on Tannenbaum in 2011 & 2012 hurting poor Rex. Oh, that's right, back then he attacked Rex because it was Tannenbaum and Pettine who fed him information. I can't wait to get things right with this team and shut people like Mehta up once and for all .

I read the newspaper for information - especially local papers to hopefully get info not available nationwide, but as you allude to, he doesn't have any information or even insight. It's all rhetoric and almost always negative. There is nothing of value in what he writes. So I have just stopped reading his articles.

WilliesDad wrote:

football51 wrote:Every time I (foolishly) read an article by Manish Mehta, I can just feel the hate he has for Idzik. It amazing how getting shutout has affected this guy. He writes that Rex will be made a scapegoat.......... where were his hard hitting articles on Tannenbaum in 2011 & 2012 hurting poor Rex. Oh, that's right, back then he attacked Rex because it was Tannenbaum and Pettine who fed him information. I can't wait to get things right with this team and shut people like Mehta up once and for all .

I read the newspaper for information - especially local papers to hopefully get info not available nationwide, but as you allude to, he doesn't have any information or even insight.  It's all rhetoric and almost always negative.  There is nothing of value in what he writes. So I have just stopped reading his articles.  

Me too. A long time ago.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 2h 2 hours ago
Contradiction right now for many #Jets fans. They root for Idzik picks to fail but don't realize it increases Rex's chances to stay if...



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 2h 2 hours ago
...1st and 2nd year players show development rest of year. Considering, Rex has already had poor player development already with another GM



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 1h 1 hour ago
Ultimately, Rex still may be back. Still may be right call to bring him back. Still a solid middle tier coach in the #NFL (12-17 range)



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 1h 1 hour ago
But the "Victim Rex" tale is most tired, misguided storyline out there. And the thought that 15-27 over 42 games isn't replaceable is dumb




Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 1h 1 hour ago
Again - If your entire explanation for the team this season is "21 MILLION UNDER CAP" - You aren't paying attention or are just selectively



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 1h 1 hour ago
ignoring what you want, particularly many of the player development issues here and hand Rex had in current team.



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 1h 1 hour ago
Criticizing Rex doesn't mean he is not a good coach. Just means he doesn't get a full pass because you like his soundbites.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago
So long term, #Jets basically went 0/7 in 2009/2010 drafts and now have 2012 1st rounder on bench and 2012 2nd rounder almost out of league


Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago
Which is basically a mix of poor picks and poor player development with that many misses #Jets



Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago
You want to avoid any HC or coaching culpability with numbers like that...I mean, you are living in a fantasy world. Sorry.

Gary Meyers just posted his sunday column online guessing where Rex will be coaching next season. If guys like Myers and Mehta spent less time trolling this team, it would be them and not Jay Glazer breaking Jets news.






http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/sunday-morning-qb-handicapping-rex-ryan-wind-article-1.1979047

My prediction: Rex Ryan will be the defensive coordinator in ATL next year.

I think the Jets make it to 7-9 and keep the staff together another year. I think with the Harvin addition and improvement from Geno, we go 6-3 down the stretch.

Superman55 wrote:I think the Jets make it to 7-9 and keep the staff together another year.  I think with the Harvin addition and improvement from Geno, we go 6-3 down the stretch.

That may end up being what happens but IMO a mistake. Rex Ryan is at best a middle of the pack HC. He is not a Super Bowl winning HC.

I've always liked Rex Ryan. Great defensive mind, and a guy who really cares about the players and the team. But I've started to question just how good of a head coach he is. His teams just seem unprepared at times, and lack discipline at other times. Dumb penalties have become too common. And they've lost badly a few too many times in his time here. I can recall about five games where we got absolutely destroyed in the last 4 years or so. That's called getting out-coached.

Personally, I'd like to see a change next season.

Why IMO opinion players love him but he will never be a good HC

More Harvin, on the topic of those fights: "Me and Rex, we all had laughs about it. He kind of didn't want to even hear about it. He said what’s in the past is in the past, and do the best you can here, and we’ll be judged from here." 


Ryan was later asked why he didn't want to hear Harvin's side of those stories.
"I don't think I need to," Ryan said. "To me, things happen. 

Full article