Idzik's state of the team

SackExchange wrote:If the Jets decide to give a new HC and GM a fresh start, how long do they get? Idzik got two. How do you give another guy more than two, when unlike Idzik he gets to bring in his own coach?

Once you've established the precedent of instability, it's going to be tough getting anyone to want to come here, and stay.

Idzik deserves 2 more years to fix his mess by picking a coach that can coach his mess.

I also pray he replaced Terry Bradway. I cant really tell how these poor drafts reflect on Idzik with Bradway still on staff.

Sack, that's a fair point. But I think the organization is already considered unstable. So the Jets need to find a way out of that. In my opinion, credibility breeds stability. A GM with good credibility will get the chance to ride out of the ups and downs of building a team, regardless of the media's criticism because that person has a track record of success. Idzik really doesn't have that. He was a part of other organizations that had success. He has never built a team by himself.

Now, it is fair to say that he has not really had the opportunity to put his full plan into motion because he inherited a bad cap situation, a roster with a lot of holes and a coach he didn't hire. Well, he fixed the cap situation, ok check. The roster still has a lot of holes and has regressed in some respects since he took over, and he turned the roster over almost completely and had 19 picks. And the coach, he is on his way out.

So, let's say Idzik stays and he hires a coach, an up and coming Asst type like Dan Quinn or Bevell. Now you have an unproven head coach, with an unproven GM, a personnel department that can't seem to get their act together, and a roster without a starting QB. And the GM fumbled the ball in an interview so badly earlier this week that he lost a lot of credibility with the fans and the media in NY. To draw an analogy, it sounds less like an NFL franchise building a championship team and more like a dorm room start up looking for venture capital. If I am the owner, I would say the "business" plan might be great, but the risk is too high, why should I invest in this? It could work, but it's a huge risk.

I would much rather start over and rebuild with a credible team with an established track record, assuming he could put one together. I believe that kind of credibility would provide stability and potentially enduring success.

Now, if Woody stays with Idzik, Idzik can help himself in three ways: 1. Fixing the personnel department. 2. Hiring the best coach he can. 3. Hitting a home run with almost every pick in the next draft. If he does that, then he earns credibility. And then, if the Jets start winning, he earns a bit more. But it is going to take accountability, success in talent evaluation and development, hiring a really good coach, and having that translate to wins - and he needs to do that basically in a year or two. That is no easy task, and I question whether he is the guy that can pull all that together.

With all due respects, its not entirely his mess. He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare. Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching. I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.

Old#15 wrote:With all due respects, its not entirely his mess.  He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare.  Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching.  I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.  

He's had 20 draft picks and $50 mill in cap space to spend, over half the roster is his mess.  No free passes in this grown men industry.

And the players not his mess are names like Harris, Mangold, Brick, Pace, Snacks, Kendrick Ellis, Douzable, Walls, Coples, some guy named Mo Wilkerson, Demario Davis, Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland.  Somehow I dont feel the players he inherited are the problem...

football51 wrote:I don't think we can let the media dictate our moves. We shouldn't give into bully tactics.  What if they don't like the next guy? What if he doesn't give out information like Tannenbaum either? Do we fire him then too? Like this thread has shown, Tannenbaum started his second year as gm 1-8. Now, because he fed the media, they let him slide and attacked Mangini because he had the surly personality. Idzik drafted the best player(Richardson) in last years' draft and was ridiculed by the media for the pick when he made it. Richardson won DROY. A strong arguement could be made that Amaro could have an excellent shot at OROY this season with better qb play. It's hard to tell what Geno is or isn't considering offensive talent never develops under Ryan. Personally, I'd like to see Idzik with his coaching choice. It's hard to fully put your plan in place when you're being forced to keep a coach and his staff that you originally wouldn't have wanted. Who knows, maybe some of these picks would be developing better with different coaches. That TOJ link in this thread shows a serious player development problem plus lack of preparation. These players aren't being prepared properly.

I don't mean to worship at the altar of football51, but...

+1

Once again, perfectly stated. It's nice to not have to type anything lengthy when someone else is NAILING IT.

Old#15 wrote:With all due respects, its not entirely his mess.  He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare.  Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching.  I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.  

I agree, it's not entirely his mess. I've said that many times. It is not on one person at all. My point is that there is so much to fix that it would be challenging for any GM. And I am just not sure Idzik is the right guy to do it based on the results we've seen so far. It is a small sample size I get that. Two years is not a lot of time. But, you want to see a team trending upward and that is not the case here.

Superman55 wrote:

Old#15 wrote:With all due respects, its not entirely his mess.  He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare.  Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching.  I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.  

He's had 20 draft picks and $50 mill in cap space to spend, over half the roster is his mess.  No free passes in this grown men industry.

And the players not his mess are names like Harris, Mangold, Brick, Pace, Snacks, Kendrick Ellis, Douzable, Walls, Coples, some guy named Mo Wilkerson, Demario Davis, Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland.  Somehow I dont feel the players he inherited are the problem...

My comment stands. We may have a chicken vs. the egg argument. I feel that no matter what you put on the field, if they are not properly prepared, coached, or suited for the scheme then the fault in my eyes is with the coaching. With Ryan at the helm I don't think we'll ever know what the ceiling could have been with the likes of Coples, Smith, and maybe even Sanchez. Of the players you listed Mo and Snacks are the only 2 who have achieved 'greatness' under Rex, and I honestly believe their success is due in large part to DL coach Dunbar. Davis IMHO is succeeding on his own. Walls is part of the of a secondary that many characterize as a 'miserable mess', so he is probably not the best example to give. The offensive duo of Powell and Cumberland, not exactly foundation guys, more like JAGs. Coples again IMHO is the poster child of Rex's inability to play to a players strengths vs being marginalized in a glorified defensive coord's ego-driven scheme. I'm rambling here, so I'll stop.

Idzik can't stop at just the HC..........unless he upgrades the scouting department, then we are going to need a HC with a Mangini-esque eye for talent.......just another layer to this fruitcake organization.

Superman55 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:If the Jets decide to give a new HC and GM a fresh start, how long do they get? Idzik got two. How do you give another guy more than two, when unlike Idzik he gets to bring in his own coach?

Once you've established the precedent of instability, it's going to be tough getting anyone to want to come here, and stay.

Idzik deserves 2 more years to fix his mess by picking a coach that can coach his mess.

I also pray he replaced Terry Bradway.  I cant really tell how these poor drafts reflect on Idzik with Bradway still on staff.

I'm not sure I agree he 'deserves' two more years, but if he isn't fired, then that's the minimum he should get with a new HC. At that point his early draft classes will come into clearer focus as well.

Rex has to shoulder some of the blame and he will. He's a goner and everyone knows it. So to a degree, I think you are both right. I think the decision is no longer about Rex. That's a done deal. Now the questions are: Who else should be held accountable for this mess? How do you fix it? And most importantly, who is the best person to fix it?

The Board seems split. Some say Idzik deserves more time. Others like me say, start over fresh. Both positions have their pluses and minuses. Time will tell how it plays out.

If Idzik stays, I hope he is the right guy. What I do know is that I don't want to wait another 3 years of his regime to find out that it was the wrong choice, when the opportunity to make a change is there today. Do any of us want to sit through 3 more years of poor to mediocre football? I know I don't.

Old#15 wrote:

Superman55 wrote:

Old#15 wrote:With all due respects, its not entirely his mess.  He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare.  Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching.  I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.  

He's had 20 draft picks and $50 mill in cap space to spend, over half the roster is his mess.  No free passes in this grown men industry.

And the players not his mess are names like Harris, Mangold, Brick, Pace, Snacks, Kendrick Ellis, Douzable, Walls, Coples, some guy named Mo Wilkerson, Demario Davis, Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland.  Somehow I dont feel the players he inherited are the problem...

My comment stands.  We may have a chicken vs. the egg argument.  I feel that no matter what you put on the field, if they are not properly prepared, coached, or suited for the scheme then the fault in my eyes is with the coaching.  With Ryan at the helm I don't think we'll ever know what the ceiling could have been with the likes of Coples, Smith, and maybe even Sanchez.  Of the players you listed Mo and Snacks are the only 2 who have achieved 'greatness' under Rex, and I honestly believe their success is due in large part to DL coach Dunbar.  Davis IMHO is succeeding on his own.  Walls is part of the of a secondary that many characterize as a 'miserable mess', so he is probably not the best example to give.  The offensive duo of Powell and Cumberland, not exactly foundation guys, more like JAGs. Coples again IMHO is the poster child of Rex's inability to play to a players strengths vs being marginalized in a glorified defensive coord's ego-driven scheme.  I'm rambling here, so I'll stop.

I'm really not sure how you can say the cupboard was bare when Idzik arrived. It may not have been fully stocked, but there were some pretty serviceable players on the roster.

GratefulJet wrote:

Old#15 wrote:

Superman55 wrote:

Old#15 wrote:With all due respects, its not entirely his mess.  He inherited a colossal mess with a bare cupboard and a cap nightmare.  Granted every move hasn't been good, but how much of what we are now witnessing can be attributed to the effects of miserable player development, little or no homegrown talent from the previous 4 pre-Idzik drafts, player misuse and generally poor coaching.  I think that the fact that we have such a poor base or poorly coached base of talent on this roster puts way too much pressure on 22 year old draftees to contribute immediately at the level that some of us expect.  

He's had 20 draft picks and $50 mill in cap space to spend, over half the roster is his mess.  No free passes in this grown men industry.

And the players not his mess are names like Harris, Mangold, Brick, Pace, Snacks, Kendrick Ellis, Douzable, Walls, Coples, some guy named Mo Wilkerson, Demario Davis, Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland.  Somehow I dont feel the players he inherited are the problem...

My comment stands.  We may have a chicken vs. the egg argument.  I feel that no matter what you put on the field, if they are not properly prepared, coached, or suited for the scheme then the fault in my eyes is with the coaching.  With Ryan at the helm I don't think we'll ever know what the ceiling could have been with the likes of Coples, Smith, and maybe even Sanchez.  Of the players you listed Mo and Snacks are the only 2 who have achieved 'greatness' under Rex, and I honestly believe their success is due in large part to DL coach Dunbar.  Davis IMHO is succeeding on his own.  Walls is part of the of a secondary that many characterize as a 'miserable mess', so he is probably not the best example to give.  The offensive duo of Powell and Cumberland, not exactly foundation guys, more like JAGs. Coples again IMHO is the poster child of Rex's inability to play to a players strengths vs being marginalized in a glorified defensive coord's ego-driven scheme.  I'm rambling here, so I'll stop.

I'm really not sure how you can say the cupboard was bare when Idzik arrived. It may not have been fully stocked, but there were some pretty serviceable players on the roster.

Maybe the roster characterization was a bit extreme. Perhaps a by-product of what I was reading at the time of the dire rock-bottom situation the team was in with regards to cap and roster quality.

LIJETFAN wrote:Rex has to shoulder some of the blame and he will.  He's a goner and everyone knows it.  So to a degree, I think you are both right.  I think the decision is no longer about Rex.  That's a done deal.  Now the questions are: Who else should be held accountable for this mess?  How do you fix it?  And most importantly, who is the best person to fix it?

The Board seems split.  Some say Idzik deserves more time.  Others like me say, start over fresh.  Both positions have their pluses and minuses.  Time will tell how it plays out.  

If Idzik stays, I hope he is the right guy.  What I do know is that I don't want to wait another 3 years of his regime to find out that it was the wrong choice, when the opportunity to make a change is there today.  Do any of us want to sit through 3 more years of poor to mediocre football?  I know I don't.    

If Idzik stays and assuming that a new coach will bring in his own coordinators (hopefully at least a new OC and ST coordinators along with a new receivers coach - Sanjay sucks), the others on the block should be Bradway, the head of the scouting department and their head of security or who ever it is that does the background checks of players.

Obviously the GM is responsible for the results. Whether any particular result is "his fault" or not is secondary to the important question, do we believe this GM can be successful? Can the organization be successful with this GM? Is there another option more likely to be successful? If so, you have to at least consider it.

With that said, though, there is a disconnect in terms of expectations for various people. Is this a team with enough talent to compete for a Super Bowl? Is it a team with enough talent to make the playoffs? If you think the answer is yes, then Idzik has done his job. If you think the answer is no, then maybe Rex doesn't deserve so much heat (obviously the start has been horrendous, and there has been an awful lack of discipline, but the real question is whether the players dictated that we would play this badly, regardless of who was coaching).

Personally, I'm not really so sure that this team is as bad as they've looked. A few things go a little differently, and this season is totally different. So, under those circumstances, I don't know if anyone needs to be fired. I think I'd give them both one more year, and then assess it again at the end of next season. I hate the idea that our moves have to be dictated by our record, when obviously 16 games is a tiny sample and really, as we know, anything can happen in those 16 games. We should be making moves on the merits, not because our record forces us to.

JohnnyBaseball wrote:Obviously the GM is responsible for the results. Whether any particular result is "his fault" or not is secondary to the important question, do we believe this GM can be successful? Can the organization be successful with this GM? Is there another option more likely to be successful? If so, you have to at least consider it.

With that said, though, there is a disconnect in terms of expectations for various people. Is this a team with enough talent to compete for a Super Bowl? Is it a team with enough talent to make the playoffs? If you think the answer is yes, then Idzik has done his job. If you think the answer is no, then maybe Rex doesn't deserve so much heat (obviously the start has been horrendous, and there has been an awful lack of discipline, but the real question is whether the players dictated that we would play this badly, regardless of who was coaching).

Personally, I'm not really so sure that this team is as bad as they've looked. A few things go a little differently, and this season is totally different. So, under those circumstances, I don't know if anyone needs to be fired. I think I'd give them both one more year, and then assess it again at the end of next season. I hate the idea that our moves have to be dictated by our record, when obviously 16 games is a tiny sample and really, as we know, anything can happen in those 16 games. We should be making moves on the merits, not because our record forces us to.

fair point....so then I would ask you what merits Ryan coming back?

Nothing in particular except that he's had some success here in the past, and I like the organization to have continuity. I wouldn't think it was wrong if he was fired. I would certainly understand it. But I don't think we HAVE to fire anyone based on our record. I just want to assess the strengths and weaknesses of our personnel and decide whether we think they give us the best chance to win going to forward, and that's what I want the determination to be made on. I don't want to punish people for losing, if doing that means we are losing talented people who could help us win. And I want the assessment to at least include a discussion of what were the appropriate expectations for these players, and not just say "we didn't win X number of games, so that's not good enough, and therefore, we must make a move."

It's not really possible to judge a GM based on two offseasons, I don't think, and it isn't really possible to judge a coach until he has players who can actually execute his game plans. I dunno, I just hate seeing people get fired because every time we make a move for a new coach or GM, it restarts this "wait and see, give 'em a chance" argument. But the way we have been doing it hasn't worked at all or produced any meaningful success for, what, over 40 years now? So maybe we should take a different approach? At least if a coach/GM are around for 6 or 7 or more years, there can be no doubt that the team on the field represents what that coach and that GM intended to put on the field, and there would be no more argument over who gets credit or blame for various players.

It's a tough call. If we can improve our chances to win by making moves, then I am all for it. But I'm just not sure that we'd actually be doing that by making a move. When some more specific names start to emerge, it will be easier to make that determination.

Okay, let's say Woody fires Idzik(which is what I believe is going to happen). Who is the "established" gm we're hiring? You'll notice that when team's have gm openings, 9 times out of 10(if not 10 out of 10) it's going to a first time gm. Now, Woody can choose a contender with a pure personnel background, but how long does he get before being turned on? Unless you're picking first in the right draft( see the Colts and their new gm), and can aquire a lock at the qb position, it's going to take time. I just don't want to be posting here in 2016 with a new gm/new coach and people talking about the best players on this team being Richardson, Milliner, Pryor, Decker, McDougle, etc. If we cut Idzik loose without him having had the ability to hire his own coach and fully implement the culture he wants here, we better be right. The coaching staff here now has a proven track record of being unable to develop young talent outside of defensive lineman(thank you Dunbar).




I saw the Daily News push Pioli as a contender. Now, outside of the bad blood from his 2000 departure, here's a guy who hired 2 failed HC's, traded a second round pick for Matt Cassel, and never developed a young qb. We want the guy who wiffed on HC's and qb's?





It's not the fact that we play in the NY market. it's the fact that we're the NY Jets that is causing this media firestorm. The Giants have a gm in place that won two championships with someone elses players( Ernie Acorsi), his drafts have been average or below, and his free agent signing haven't been impactful. He's been there now for what.......... 8 years? The Jaguars hired a young personnel guru in Dave Caldwell the same year we hired Idzik. Now, at least he got to hire his own coach, but with higher draft choices, has he outperformed Idzik? How about personnel guru Reggie McKenzie in Oakland(they got that stud from the Packers)? How have his drafts been? Not better than Idzik's despite getting to pick higher. How about the boat loads of cap dollars he's given to past their prime free agents? According to the media, all Woody has to do is hire a gm with a strong personnel background. I've just provided examples on why it's not as simple as that. Luck(no pun intended) plays a part as well.



So, in two months, let's clean house, and hire a personnel guru as gm who will then hire his own hc. By august, if everything doesn't look like it's working perfectly, we'll be reading the same sarcastic/ condescending newspaper articles and online rants from "die hard fans who are now waiting 46 years to end their pain".

football51 wrote:
So, in two months, let's clean house, and hire a personnel guru as gm who will then hire his own hc. By august, if everything doesn't look like it's working perfectly, we'll be reading the same sarcastic/ condescending newspaper articles and online rants from "die hard fans who are now waiting 46 years to end their pain".

This is what I'm worried about too. I hope the Jets are smart enough to ignore media voices when they are making their personnel decisions. I think it goes without saying that they should ignore fans when making these decisions.

JohnnyBaseball wrote:

football51 wrote:
So, in two months, let's clean house, and hire a personnel guru as gm who will then hire his own hc. By august, if everything doesn't look like it's working perfectly, we'll be reading the same sarcastic/ condescending newspaper articles and online rants from "die hard fans who are now waiting 46 years to end their pain".

This is what I'm worried about too. I hope the Jets are smart enough to ignore media voices when they are making their personnel decisions. I think it goes without saying that they should ignore fans when making these decisions.

As a Mets fan, I'm quite used to being ignored by team mgmt/ownership, thank you very much!

JohnnyBaseball wrote:Nothing in particular except that he's had some success here in the past, and I like the organization to have continuity. I wouldn't think it was wrong if he was fired. I would certainly understand it. But I don't think we HAVE to fire anyone based on our record. I just want to assess the strengths and weaknesses of our personnel and decide whether we think they give us the best chance to win going to forward, and that's what I want the determination to be made on. I don't want to punish people for losing, if doing that means we are losing talented people who could help us win. And I want the assessment to at least include a discussion of what were the appropriate expectations for these players, and not just say "we didn't win X number of games, so that's not good enough, and therefore, we must make a move."

It's not really possible to judge a GM based on two offseasons, I don't think, and it isn't really possible to judge a coach until he has players who can actually execute his game plans. I dunno, I just hate seeing people get fired because every time we make a move for a new coach or GM, it restarts this "wait and see, give 'em a chance" argument. But the way we have been doing it hasn't worked at all or produced any meaningful success for, what, over 40 years now? So maybe we should take a different approach? At least if a coach/GM are around for 6 or 7 or more years, there can be no doubt that the team on the field represents what that coach and that GM intended to put on the field, and there would be no more argument over who gets credit or blame for various players.

It's a tough call. If we can improve our chances to win by making moves, then I am all for it. But I'm just not sure that we'd actually be doing that by making a move. When some more specific names start to emerge, it will be easier to make that determination.

1) team is always poorly prepared
2) team is always minus in turnover dept
3) always out coached at halftime with adjustments
4) as much as players love him he never seems to have a handle of what is actually going on in his locker room
5) poor clock management
6) team always takes stupid penalties

All these problems have lasted over 6 years through multiple GMs, Coordinators, Coaches and vastly different groups of players. The one constant is Rex.

 He is not a good HC. He is a good DC. Forget 1-7 Rex should not even be here this year to have gone 1-7

Oh yeah the one other constant is Woody the clown owner who forced Idzik to retain Rex when he was hired knocking a unified HC - GM plan out of wack

Here we go..............







http://www.metro.us/new-york/firejohnidzik-com-sprouts-up-aiming-to-ax-jets-gm/zsJnjD---0PYP78cUdCog/

football51 wrote:Here we go..............







http://www.metro.us/new-york/firejohnidzik-com-sprouts-up-aiming-to-ax-jets-gm/zsJnjD---0PYP78cUdCog/

I have no faith in Woody so even though I think it is totally unfair to fire a GM this soon. I am starting to think we will be starting with a whole new group running the team next year.

NickSINYC wrote:
1) team is always poorly prepared
2) team is always minus in turnover dept
3) always out coached at halftime with adjustments
4) as much as players love him he never seems to have a handle of what is actually going on in his locker room
5) poor clock management
6) team always takes stupid penalties

All these problems have lasted over 6 years through multiple GMs, Coordinators, Coaches and vastly different groups of players. The one constant is Rex.

 He is not a good HC. He is a good DC. Forget 1-7 Rex should not even be here this year to have gone 1-7

Fair analysis. I don't know that I'd call them "vastly different" groups of players, but whatever. I just want these to be the reasons why a decision is made, and not media pressure or a feeling that he needs to be punished for not winning enough games.

JohnnyBaseball wrote:

NickSINYC wrote:
1) team is always poorly prepared
2) team is always minus in turnover dept
3) always out coached at halftime with adjustments
4) as much as players love him he never seems to have a handle of what is actually going on in his locker room
5) poor clock management
6) team always takes stupid penalties

All these problems have lasted over 6 years through multiple GMs, Coordinators, Coaches and vastly different groups of players. The one constant is Rex.

 He is not a good HC. He is a good DC. Forget 1-7 Rex should not even be here this year to have gone 1-7

Fair analysis. I don't know that I'd call them "vastly different" groups of players, but whatever. I just want these to be the reasons why a decision is made, and not media pressure or a feeling that he needs to be punished for not winning enough games.

How many players from the 2009 team are playing this year? I believe its 4 but I may be mistaken