Detroit Lions @ New York Jets (CBS)- 1pm

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

Lakerfan1980 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:I don't know why Vick was brought in here, either. What Geno needs to learn, Vick can't teach him. He can't teach Geno about ball protection, since he has none himself.

If people are done with Geno, fine. I think it's premature. But if you are going to pull the plug on him in a lost cause of a season, at least go with Simms over Vick.

Vick is not an interception machine, makes good decisions when throwing the ball and is not afraid.  His problem is bad decisions running the ball and fumbling.  Simms won't get the call if Geno is benched(and he should be), Vick will and I have confidence if he is protected he will score touchdowns.....Vick sees Decker on that 3rd down play and has the courage to make the throw.

Double digit INTs in 5 of 7 seasons in which he started more than half the games. One season with a completion percentage over 60%. 9 or more fumbles in seven seasons.

His turnover problems are as much fumbles as they are INTs, but Dan's point was that he was sick of Geno being a turnover machine, and instead wanted to turn to Vick. I don't see how going from Geno to Vick eliminates the turnovers.

Point is, Geno may not be the long-term answer, but Vick definitely isn't.

I want to turn to Vick because he is a veteran. Something the Jets havent had at the back up position in a long time.  Vick is no rookie. He's been at the highest of high's and the lowest of low's.
Saying that, he had one of his best statistical seasons with our current O.C.  Stats can be thrown every where.  If that's the case on Vick then Vinny Testaverde should have never been succesful in a Jets uniform because he was one of the worst TD-Interception ratio QB when he was in Tampa.

All i'am saying is that Vick can spark this anemic offense.  We have at this point no production at the QB position with Geno.  Maybe if Vick has a chance, he can have one last stellar season instead of wasting a season in trying to develop a 2nd rounder who just doesn't get it.

To the argument of Sanchez getting 4 years and Geno 1.25.  Sanchez was a 1st rounder, Geno a 2nd.  It's like being the Panthers head coach after drafting Cam Newton and telling him, you have to wait your turn, we're still in the middle of trying to develop Jimmy Clausen.  
2nd rounders and 1st rounder QB's will have different length leashes. A coach can survive giving up on a 2nd round QB after year two.  Not a 1st rounder.  This is where Rex's future hangs in the balance.  Does he still feel Geno is the answer or will he just want to win this season placing Vick in, in which gives the team a better chance to win this year and maybe save Rex's job.

The team is 1-3 and still very much in line to make a run at the playoffs if a switch is made at QB. Yet if we stick with Geno, nothing will change.

Why go with a veteran if the season is lost? And even if the season isn't lost, more can be gained from playing the younger QB. This is NOT a win-now team! It's not!

And this incessant argument that because Geno is turning the ball over a lot, we should go with Vick is just moronic. Anyone...anyone...who has followed Vick's career has seen the turnover machine he has been, both with picks and fumbles.

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

SackExchange wrote:And the notion that this can be a championship team aside from one position is laughable. Geno is the only issue on offense?

It's tough to reasonably discuss anything with that as a premise.

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

Lakerfan1980 wrote:Why is Simms seven the conversation?  He isn't the backup. The players on the field don't want to suckit up so they can get a top pick and new coach.

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:Though there was a post on the "other board" in which had me thinking and hell who knows what goes on behind the scenes.  It may be a possibilty. Here it is:

liwvu13 wrote: "Vick was brought in to be a mentor for Geno (which he didn't have last year) and to be a quality backup if Geno got hurt.  Thats it. He was never going to be the starter because he wasn't about the Jets future and he knows and understands that.   For Idzik,in his mind this season was going to play out 1 or 2 ways.

1. Geno would flourish and  become our franchise QB

2. Geno would fail and Idzik could go after another QB in the draft.  Theoretically this would also mean that the Jets would have a bad record and high pick.

Believe it or not, the last thing Idzik would want is for Vick to come in and win games, as crazy as that sounds.  Because if that happens, the Jets still don't have their QB of the future and wouldn't have a high pick the draft."

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:And the notion that this can be a championship team aside from one position is laughable. Geno is the only issue on offense?

It's tough to reasonably discuss anything with that as a premise.

Championship team? Who said Championship team, Sack? I said the team has all the tools to "WIN-NOW".  Two legit RB's. A decent Wide receiving core including tight ends along side a solid O-Line wouldn't merit a team that can win now against anyone if better QB was being demonstrated?
We can be atleast comptetive on that side of the ball that would compliment a defense that keeps us in games my friend.

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:Though there was a post on the "other board" in which had me thinking and hell who knows what goes on behind the scenes.  It may be a possibilty. Here it is:

liwvu13 wrote: "Vick was brought in to be a mentor for Geno (which he didn't have last year) and to be a quality backup if Geno got hurt.  Thats it. He was never going to be the starter because he wasn't about the Jets future and he knows and understands that.   For Idzik,in his mind this season was going to play out 1 or 2 ways.

1. Geno would flourish and  become our franchise QB

2. Geno would fail and Idzik could go after another QB in the draft.  Theoretically this would also mean that the Jets would have a bad record and high pick.

Believe it or not, the last thing Idzik would want is for Vick to come in and win games, as crazy as that sounds.  Because if that happens, the Jets still don't have their QB of the future and wouldn't have a high pick the draft."


Agreed partner. I want a long term solution as well and i feel like we may have it with Geno out on the pitch. We will probably have a high draft pick and i'am sure the new sheriff in town would want his own young gun to lead this franchise.
Though i would really want to see what this offense can look like(production wise) if Vick was in there.

I honestly think that's the case. I never, ever understood the Vick signing. He's not a great mentor for Geno. He turns the ball over, makes bad decisions, tucks it and runs way too quickly, and has a low completion percentage. The guy makes up for his mental mistakes with physical ability. So why have him as a mentor?

I know Geno is infuriating. He's infuriating to me. But I don't think this team is ready to compete for a title, regardless of which QB is out there. Isn't that what this is about? Isn't it about building a Super Bowl team, and not just cashing in the future for a wild card this year?

That is why my choices for starting are:

1. Geno
2. Simms
3. Vick

What you are saying, and what hobson is saying, and LakerFan, is understandable. I get why you are frustrated. I guess I'm just more interested in the long-term than in the short-term.

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:And the notion that this can be a championship team aside from one position is laughable. Geno is the only issue on offense?

It's tough to reasonably discuss anything with that as a premise.

Championship team? Who said Championship team, Sack? I said the team has all the tools to "WIN-NOW".  Two legit RB's. A decent Wide receiving core including tight ends along side a solid O-Line wouldn't merit a team that can win now against anyone if better QB was being demonstrated?
We can be atleast comptetive on that side of the ball that would compliment a defense that keeps us in games my friend.

Which would you prefer? The Jets are competitive now and remain at that level, or they tank it now and build to a true championship caliber?

If it's not about being championship quality, what difference does it make? I like making the playoffs, too, but we've seen it. We've seen two AFC title games. We've seen a couple division titles.

I don't care about competing for a wild card, especially if it stunts the long-term goal of being truly championship-caliber.

Otherwise, what are we talking about when we say "win now?" Win what? 8 or 9 games? One wild card round, maybe?

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

lol, cause i don't like Geno as if we went to junior high and he took my mash pototoes when i was famished on a Wednesday afternoon.
I can't stand him because he is not a starting QB in this league Sack. Mike Vick was. Vick cannot be worse than Smith at this point.
If i strongly didn't want the best interest of the team then i'd vouch to continue with a struggling QB who just doesn't get it.  A second rounder for that matter. A second rounder in which the team hasn't really invested much as when they drafted MARK SANCHEZ 5TH OVERALL.

I'am just glad that by this time next year we wont be having this debate on either QB, Sack. Reason being, as long as Geno continues to start and we as fans and the Jets organization can finish "gathering their data" on him, there will be a new coach and a new young 1st round QB leading this team who actually merits the time and development to flourish in the league.

Geno is a lost cause.

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:And the notion that this can be a championship team aside from one position is laughable. Geno is the only issue on offense?

It's tough to reasonably discuss anything with that as a premise.

Championship team? Who said Championship team, Sack? I said the team has all the tools to "WIN-NOW".  Two legit RB's. A decent Wide receiving core including tight ends along side a solid O-Line wouldn't merit a team that can win now against anyone if better QB was being demonstrated?
We can be atleast comptetive on that side of the ball that would compliment a defense that keeps us in games my friend.

Which would you prefer? The Jets are competitive now and remain at that level, or they tank it now and build to a true championship caliber?

If it's not about being championship quality, what difference does it make? I like making the playoffs, too, but we've seen it. We've seen two AFC title games. We've seen a couple division titles.

I don't care about competing for a wild card, especially if it stunts the long-term goal of being truly championship-caliber.

Otherwise, what are we talking about when we say "win now?" Win what? 8 or 9 games? One wild card round, maybe?

Sack we all know anything can happen once a team is in the playoffs even if they shouldn't be in it.  Just look at the Giants in '11. A 9-7 record, 6th seed and won the Superbowl.
There have been teams every year at the top of the draft never getting any where.  Why not make a switch and atleast have some sort of excitement.

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

lol, cause i don't like Geno as if we went to junior high and he took my mash pototoes when i was famished on a Wednesday afternoon.
I can't stand him because he is not a starting QB in this league Sack. Mike Vick was. Vick cannot be worse than Smith at this point.
If i strongly didn't want the best interest of the team then i'd vouch to continue with a struggling QB who just doesn't get it.  A second rounder for that matter. A second rounder in which the team hasn't really invested much as when they drafted MARK SANCHEZ 5TH OVERALL.

I'am just glad that by this time next year we wont be having this debate on either QB, Sack. Reason being, as long as Geno continues to start and we as fans and the Jets organization can finish "gathering their data" on him, there will be a new coach and a new young 1st round QB leading this team who actually merits the time and development to flourish in the league.

Geno is a lost cause.

So because Sanchez was chosen fifth, and came with a huge contract and investment, he gets four years of worse play. You didn't give up on him until that last season.

Geno doesn't even get 20 games.

And for the record, Geno has been better at this point in his career than Sanchez.

Rookie seasons:

Sanchez - 12 TDs, 20 INTs, 53.8% completions, 2,444 yards, 63.0 passer rating
Geno - 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 55.8% completions, 3,046 yards, 66.5 passer rating

Not to mention Geno this year has a completion percentage above 60% this season (Sanchez never had a season with a 60% completion rate), 4 TDs to 5 INTs (still not a great ratio, but far better than 12/20 or 12/21), and a passer rating of 75.1 at this point (almost identical to Sanchez's 75.3 for his entire second season).

Sanchez was allowed to develop. Geno is not.

This team will never actually develop a franchise QB if no growing pains are never allowed.

That said, I understand why people are frustrated with Geno. But when people gave Sanchez opportunity after opportunity before turning on him, it's hypocritical to want to pull the plug on Geno so quickly.

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

lol, cause i don't like Geno as if we went to junior high and he took my mash pototoes when i was famished on a Wednesday afternoon.
I can't stand him because he is not a starting QB in this league Sack. Mike Vick was. Vick cannot be worse than Smith at this point.
If i strongly didn't want the best interest of the team then i'd vouch to continue with a struggling QB who just doesn't get it.  A second rounder for that matter. A second rounder in which the team hasn't really invested much as when they drafted MARK SANCHEZ 5TH OVERALL.

I'am just glad that by this time next year we wont be having this debate on either QB, Sack. Reason being, as long as Geno continues to start and we as fans and the Jets organization can finish "gathering their data" on him, there will be a new coach and a new young 1st round QB leading this team who actually merits the time and development to flourish in the league.

Geno is a lost cause.

So because Sanchez was chosen fifth, and came with a huge contract and investment, he gets four years of worse play. You didn't give up on him until that last season.

Geno doesn't even get 20 games.

And for the record, Geno has been better at this point in his career than Sanchez.

Rookie seasons:

Sanchez - 12 TDs, 20 INTs, 53.8% completions, 2,444 yards, 63.0 passer rating
Geno - 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 55.8% completions, 3,046 yards, 66.5 passer rating

Not to mention Geno this year has a completion percentage above 60% this season (Sanchez never had a season with a 60% completion rate), 4 TDs to 5 INTs (still not a great ratio, but far better than 12/20 or 12/21), and a passer rating of 75.1 at this point (almost identical to Sanchez's 75.3 for his entire second season).

Sanchez was allowed to develop. Geno is not.

This team will never actually develop a franchise QB if no growing pains are never allowed.

That said, I understand why people are frustrated with Geno. But when people gave Sanchez opportunity after opportunity before turning on him, it's hypocritical to want to pull the plug on Geno so quickly.

Sack, it's not hypocritical at all.  A first rounder will always the opportunity to get the benfit of the doubt more than a 2nd rounder.  There is more invested in a 1st rounder than a 2nd rounder.  Like i said before, Jimmy Clausen (2nd Rounder) vs Cam Newton (1st rounder).  The Panthers would have been laughed at if they gave more chances to Clausen to develop than Cam.

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:And the notion that this can be a championship team aside from one position is laughable. Geno is the only issue on offense?

It's tough to reasonably discuss anything with that as a premise.

Championship team? Who said Championship team, Sack? I said the team has all the tools to "WIN-NOW".  Two legit RB's. A decent Wide receiving core including tight ends along side a solid O-Line wouldn't merit a team that can win now against anyone if better QB was being demonstrated?
We can be atleast comptetive on that side of the ball that would compliment a defense that keeps us in games my friend.

Which would you prefer? The Jets are competitive now and remain at that level, or they tank it now and build to a true championship caliber?

If it's not about being championship quality, what difference does it make? I like making the playoffs, too, but we've seen it. We've seen two AFC title games. We've seen a couple division titles.

I don't care about competing for a wild card, especially if it stunts the long-term goal of being truly championship-caliber.

Otherwise, what are we talking about when we say "win now?" Win what? 8 or 9 games? One wild card round, maybe?

Sack we all know anything can happen once a team is in the playoffs even if they shouldn't be in it.  Just look at the Giants in '11. A 9-7 record, 6th seed and won the Superbowl.
There have been teams every year at the top of the draft never getting any where.  Why not make a switch and atleast have some sort of excitement.

So rather than be patient and try to build a sustained winner, you'd rather throw the dice with squeaking into the playoffs?

Since the Jets last won the SB, they have made the playoffs 13 times, with 2 division titles. How many of those times did the Jets get hot and win it all, or even make the SB?

Sorry, but my choice would be to sacrifice this season for the benefit of the long term, rather than hoping and praying that they sneak into the sixth spot and then get hot and win it all.

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

lol, cause i don't like Geno as if we went to junior high and he took my mash pototoes when i was famished on a Wednesday afternoon.
I can't stand him because he is not a starting QB in this league Sack. Mike Vick was. Vick cannot be worse than Smith at this point.
If i strongly didn't want the best interest of the team then i'd vouch to continue with a struggling QB who just doesn't get it.  A second rounder for that matter. A second rounder in which the team hasn't really invested much as when they drafted MARK SANCHEZ 5TH OVERALL.

I'am just glad that by this time next year we wont be having this debate on either QB, Sack. Reason being, as long as Geno continues to start and we as fans and the Jets organization can finish "gathering their data" on him, there will be a new coach and a new young 1st round QB leading this team who actually merits the time and development to flourish in the league.

Geno is a lost cause.

So because Sanchez was chosen fifth, and came with a huge contract and investment, he gets four years of worse play. You didn't give up on him until that last season.

Geno doesn't even get 20 games.

And for the record, Geno has been better at this point in his career than Sanchez.

Rookie seasons:

Sanchez - 12 TDs, 20 INTs, 53.8% completions, 2,444 yards, 63.0 passer rating
Geno - 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 55.8% completions, 3,046 yards, 66.5 passer rating

Not to mention Geno this year has a completion percentage above 60% this season (Sanchez never had a season with a 60% completion rate), 4 TDs to 5 INTs (still not a great ratio, but far better than 12/20 or 12/21), and a passer rating of 75.1 at this point (almost identical to Sanchez's 75.3 for his entire second season).

Sanchez was allowed to develop. Geno is not.

This team will never actually develop a franchise QB if no growing pains are never allowed.

That said, I understand why people are frustrated with Geno. But when people gave Sanchez opportunity after opportunity before turning on him, it's hypocritical to want to pull the plug on Geno so quickly.

Sack, it's not hypocritical at all.  A first rounder will always the opportunity to get the benfit of the doubt more than a 2nd rounder.  There is more invested in a 1st rounder than a 2nd rounder.  Like i said before, Jimmy Clausen (2nd Rounder) vs Cam Newton (1st rounder).  The Panthers would have been laughed at if they gave more chances to Clausen to develop than Cam.

And if Clausen had better numbers than Cam?

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

SackExchange wrote:You want to replace Geno with Vick because, why not?

I have no problem putting in Simms. At least then you are gathering data on a young QB. But to me, it seems like you want Geno pulled because you don't like Geno, regardless of what is in the best interests of the organization.

lol, cause i don't like Geno as if we went to junior high and he took my mash pototoes when i was famished on a Wednesday afternoon.
I can't stand him because he is not a starting QB in this league Sack. Mike Vick was. Vick cannot be worse than Smith at this point.
If i strongly didn't want the best interest of the team then i'd vouch to continue with a struggling QB who just doesn't get it.  A second rounder for that matter. A second rounder in which the team hasn't really invested much as when they drafted MARK SANCHEZ 5TH OVERALL.

I'am just glad that by this time next year we wont be having this debate on either QB, Sack. Reason being, as long as Geno continues to start and we as fans and the Jets organization can finish "gathering their data" on him, there will be a new coach and a new young 1st round QB leading this team who actually merits the time and development to flourish in the league.

Geno is a lost cause.

So because Sanchez was chosen fifth, and came with a huge contract and investment, he gets four years of worse play. You didn't give up on him until that last season.

Geno doesn't even get 20 games.

And for the record, Geno has been better at this point in his career than Sanchez.

Rookie seasons:

Sanchez - 12 TDs, 20 INTs, 53.8% completions, 2,444 yards, 63.0 passer rating
Geno - 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 55.8% completions, 3,046 yards, 66.5 passer rating

Not to mention Geno this year has a completion percentage above 60% this season (Sanchez never had a season with a 60% completion rate), 4 TDs to 5 INTs (still not a great ratio, but far better than 12/20 or 12/21), and a passer rating of 75.1 at this point (almost identical to Sanchez's 75.3 for his entire second season).

Sanchez was allowed to develop. Geno is not.

This team will never actually develop a franchise QB if no growing pains are never allowed.

That said, I understand why people are frustrated with Geno. But when people gave Sanchez opportunity after opportunity before turning on him, it's hypocritical to want to pull the plug on Geno so quickly.

Sack, it's not hypocritical at all.  A first rounder will always the opportunity to get the benfit of the doubt more than a 2nd rounder.  There is more invested in a 1st rounder than a 2nd rounder.  Like i said before, Jimmy Clausen (2nd Rounder) vs Cam Newton (1st rounder).  The Panthers would have been laughed at if they gave more chances to Clausen to develop than Cam.

And if Clausen had better numbers than Cam?

Then it would be a situation like the Chargers had with Philip Rivers and Drew Brees. Yet, the franchise pulled harder for Rivers than they did for Brees.  Hece why Rivers, a 1st rounder by the Chargers organization is still in San Diego.

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:Geno is a second rounder. Unlike other 2nd rounders in Andy Dalton or Drew Brees, Geno doesn't have the mentality and QB fortitude to be a starter. The guy showcased his immaturity after yesterday's game busting out an "F-U" to a fan that possibly is sick and tired of garbage play at the QB position that has all the tools around him to succeed.

(even Drew Brees had to be benched in favor of Doug Flutie for a little instant in San Diego)

Rex, i like him alot as our Head coach, but him being clueless on how to handle the QB's over the years will ultimatley seal his fate this year.  Also to oppose your "This is not a win -now team". I beg to differ. The offense has all the tools to be a win now team, except for one crucial position.
The defense, as bad as some make it out to be is doing their part keeping the team in games.  Rex Knows the team can win, yet he needs to atleast make a change at the main culprit at QB that may give this offense a jolt to get back on track, because Geno's play is purely INEPT.

Is Vick the answer? I don't think so.  Yet, at this point why not try him out because it cannot get any worse than having Geno out there.
Heck, put Simms in there too. Any other option has got to be better than Geno Smith.  He is by far the worst QB i have seen dawn a Jets Jersey at that QB position since Browning Nagle.

NYJETSDAN16 wrote:

Lakerfan1980 wrote:Why is Simms seven the conversation?  He isn't the backup. The players on the field don't want to suckit up so they can get a top pick and new coach.

Because even a ham & cheese sandwich has got to be a better option than Geno Smith giviing us a shot to win another game this year.

Yes, Geno Smith is THAT BAD.  There is absolutley nothing that can be stated otherwise. He shows no flashes to revert the argument.