Idzik's state of the team

NickSINYC wrote:

Superman55 wrote:

My point is, its just as easy to make a case both ways...  

Equal blame in my book.

I just can't equally blame someone almost 6 years on the job making all the same mistakes with someone on the job less than 2 years who although has  made mistakes and is not perfect has made some good moves and handled finances well.

If you're making me play devils advocate again, some people called us going 8-8 with last year's roster a miracle.

Still feel they both stink, but again, arguments can be made both ways.

Also, Rex only coached the Jets in 2014 because Idzik extended his contract. It was Idzik's decision to have Rex coach this year, so firing Rex is saying he made the wrong decision in that area too...even if the decision was made due to Rex's miraculous coaching job in 2013...

Again, pretending Idzik hasn't sucked also is as bad as pretending Rex isn't to blame.

---

Managed the finances well?  We have 2 wins.  Is starving to death so you can have $50 mill in your bank account managing your finances well?

NickSINYC wrote:I have come to the conclusion that this Idzik debate is going nowhere fast. Both sides are locked into their positions and no amount of debate will change anyone's opinion. I won't restate them because they have been posted in so many different threads already ad nauseam. 

Only time will give us the correct answer if Idzik get retained we see how his plan plays out. Even if he gets fired we see what his 2 draft classes look like in two years.

I will just bump myself up and say I have no idea how I let myself get sucked back in to the Idzik debate but I hope I finally learned my lessson

NickSINYC wrote:

NickSINYC wrote:I have come to the conclusion that this Idzik debate is going nowhere fast. Both sides are locked into their positions and no amount of debate will change anyone's opinion. I won't restate them because they have been posted in so many different threads already ad nauseam. 

Only time will give us the correct answer if Idzik get retained we see how his plan plays out. Even if he gets fired we see what his 2 draft classes look like in two years.

I will just bump myself up and say I have no idea how I let myself get sucked back in to the Idzik debate but I hope I finally learned my lessson

It's not an Idzik debate, it's a we have more problems than just Rex Ryan debate. Rex Ryan is a problem, pretending he's the only problem is as bad as the people who said Geno was the only problem so we need to insert Vick.

We have coaching issues,
We have scouting issues,
we have GM decision issues, and
we have under performing personnel issues.


...if you only fix one of the above, i.e. Rex Ryan, we're a 6 win team (maybe) instead of a 2 win team. Point being, we're still not where we want to be.

The Jets need to fix the Rex issue, and I feel the scouting department issue, and if we still have problems, the GM issue.

Pretending replacing Rex next year alone gets us closer to where we want to be, a perennial play-off team, is folly, IMO, and showing blind support the opposite direction.

This is how I feel about your argument, let me copy and past the above for you:

"I have come to the conclusion that this Rex Ryan debate is going nowhere fast. Both sides are locked into their positions and no amount of debate will change anyone's opinion. I won't restate them because they have been posted in so many different threads already ad nauseam." 

Truth is, coaches can't win in this league without personnel (see Sean Payton and Tom Coughlin this year), and GMs can't win without solid coaching (I would argue that Cleveland had similar talent last year as this year but didn't get as much out of the same players...and Haden played better last year than this year).

I'll never agree the way to fix the 2-14 Jets, the worst Jets team in 20 years, is by replacing 1 man.

Get Idzik and the whole scouting department out. Then, go give a blank check to a qualified GM. I'm serious. There are guys out there, go get someone that can rebuild this joke.

Just thinking outward if Woody decides to clean house would this job be attractive to a top tier GM (whomever that may be). He would be inheriting a team not void of talent but certainly needing help at QB, the offensive line, CB and injecting some speed into the linebackers. He can pick his own head coach and scouting staff. He would most likely have a top 3-5 pick in the 2015 draft and a healthy 50 million dollar purse to go an get some talent via free agency. Also coming from a 2-3 win season the expectations are realistically low (last place schedule). That sounds attractive on the surface.

The negative is the NY market and the "circus" boat anchor attached to this franchise. May not be for everyone but it is certainly a better situation when we were searching and ended up with Idzik (salary cap a mess and he had to keep Rex - dumbest move Woody has made so far).

I have no clue who would be the best candidate but I guess we all hope Woody has seen the light about hiring lawyers and financial guys.

Happy TG to all.

The circus will leave town once competent people are running the football operations. The only path for Idzik to survive is for him to NAIL the choice of new HC......he gets no mulligans with that one. Then he must revamp/clean out the scouting department. There is no way he can be allowed to draft in 2015 with the same group that led the past 2. Do those things and he has a chance to turn it around.

Here's the problem for Idzik.........can he do those things? The success rate of new HCs is not promising, so he really can't afford a big learning curve for the choice. Idzik cannot survive another poor season in 2015.

Dear prospective GM of the NYJ,

Are you interested in accepting a position as GM of the NYJ? It's a glorious position. You've got a media culture hellbent on criticizing your every move, and will turn on you in a NY minute. Also, you have an impatient fan base who flies banners over practice calling for your firing at the first sign of trouble, and if that's not enough, billboards are also used to smear you. Just one thing, though  Don't get too comfortable. This position is a 1 1/2 year audition. We are moving in a new direction as an organization. We're calling it "the Oakland Raiders Model". A commitment to excellence.

We hope you'll give strong consideration to our offer.

Cheers! Happy Holidays,

Woody Johnson

funny how a fanbase that hasn't seen a Superbowl since 1969 is portrayed as 'impatient'.........patience is all we have known and quite frankly we are tired of the buffoons hired to the front office over the years.

Perhaps we were too impatient with Rich Kotite as well.

A couple of things..........



- We don't know if it was Idzik who wanted to retain Ryan after 2013. Stories leaked last year that Idzik was compiling a list of potential HC's, and Ryan used that in one of his pregame speeches. Maybe, Woody made the call out of his love of Rex.



- Stop with the 9-2 nonsense. No one said that. Like Nick, I believe we'd be closer to .500 with a better staff. Just read the "experts" picks in this link after the preseason. All between 7 & 9 wins. They all saw the roster. That screams poor coaching/player development.



- NO ONE said Idzik is blameless. However, after watching the same mistakes for six years, Rex has become Sanchez. We've seen enough. Idzik........ I have no idea what he'll ultimately be. It's too soon for me at least to form a definitive opinion.




- I keep hearing about throwing money at qualified gm's who've built championship teams. Those who mention that, please list them unless you're only talking about the two senior citizens(Polian & Wolf). I don't think either is interested in anything more than a consultant gig at this stage(Polian worked with us last year and Wolf worked with the Chargers). I know in 2013, we interviewed Jerry Angelo, and posters wanted no part of him. his picks were nitpicked even though he drafted a number of All Pro's( and a HOF'er in Urlacher), and the Bears went to the Super Bowl under him as well. So, please provide a few candidates.

football51 wrote:A couple of things..........



- We don't know if it was Idzik who wanted to retain Ryan after 2013. Stories leaked last year that Idzik was compiling a list of potential HC's, and Ryan used that in one of his pregame speeches. Maybe, Woody made the call out of his love of Rex.



- Stop with the 9-2 nonsense. No one said that. Like Nick, I believe we'd be closer to .500 with a better staff. Just read the "experts" picks in this link after the preseason. All between 7 & 9 wins. They all saw the roster. That screams poor coaching/player development.



- NO ONE said Idzik is blameless. However, after watching the same mistakes for six years, Rex has become Sanchez. We've seen enough. Idzik........ I have no idea what he'll ultimately be. It's too soon for me at least to form a definitive opinion.




- I keep hearing about throwing money at qualified gm's who've built championship teams. Those who mention that, please list them unless you're only talking about the two senior citizens(Polian & Wolf). I don't think either is interested in anything more than a consultant gig at this stage(Polian worked with us last year and Wolf worked with the Chargers). I know in 2013, we interviewed Jerry Angelo, and posters wanted no part of him. his picks were nitpicked even though he drafted a number of All Pro's( and a HOF'er in Urlacher), and the Bears went to the Super Bowl under him as well. So, please provide a few candidates.

No to Angelo.

John Idzik

Go Jets...Cyborg

Excellent read here.



http://turnonthejets.com/2014/11/new-york-jets-ugly-end-rex-ryan-era/



I'd also like to add that if you haven't already, get a copy of Collision Low Crossers. It foreshadowed the demise of Ryan(including some interesting thoughts from his own assistants) after the 2011 season. All the issues discussed in that book grew worse over the years.

football51 wrote:Excellent read here.



http://turnonthejets.com/2014/11/new-york-jets-ugly-end-rex-ryan-era/



I'd also like to add that if you haven't already, get a copy of Collision Low Crossers. It foreshadowed the demise of Ryan(including some interesting thoughts from his own assistants) after the 2011 season. All the issues discussed in that book grew worse over the years.

Yes, both good reads. CLC made me really like Rex the person and DC, but worry about Rex the HC. He just doesn't have the organizational skills, management skills, or mind for all aspects of the game to be a quality HC. Peter Principle in action. He has risen to his level of incompetence, as most all of us do at one point or another. In Rex's case, a cushy TV job awaits, so that's where the common man analogy ends.

That piece by Cannizarro is really beyond the pale, even if true, but in all likelihood it is a smear job hit piece. I just cannot believe how toxic the environment has become for Idzik. Aside from the billboards and plane banners, spend some time on JetsBlog or even the old Scout forum to see just how vile and relentless every thread has become a fire Idzik thread. It's comic in a very sad and SOJF way. I have been extremely critical of the job Idzik did with the 2014 draft, but stopped short of calling for his scalp. Seeing how venomous the critics have become has actually made me want to support him, but I am starting to wonder how he can survive this storm. It is so bad. Woody is just letting him twist in the wind, and it's past time for some words of support from the owner. The dysfunction starts from the top, and right now Woody is just letting it all play out. What a mess. Maybe JI will have to go when all is said and done, but seeing the horde get its human sacrifice does kind of turn the stomach. If Woody lets this thing have its way, he's creating a monster.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 11h 11 hours ago
Last night's Post article will be first of many from Sexton. Watch Rapoport, Mehta and Cole to have a few others in coming weeks #Jets

The team is 2-9, criticism is deserved and much of it is valid, but the current toxic situation is the result of tabloid media types seeing the opportunity to draw attention to themselves, Internet trolls who thrive at times like these, defeatist crybaby immature fans, and sincere decent fans who are frustrated

football51 wrote:Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets  ·  11h 11 hours ago
Last night's Post article will be first of many from Sexton. Watch Rapoport, Mehta and Cole to have a few others in coming weeks #Jets

is there anyone who actually believes Idzik of all people would be telling people around the league he planned to fire Rex after the season? count me as quite dubious

Sarge wrote:The team is 2-9, criticism is deserved and much of it is valid, but the current toxic situation is the result of tabloid media types seeing the opportunity to draw attention to themselves, Internet trolls who thrive at times like these, defeatist crybaby immature fans, and sincere decent fans who are frustrated

Every harsh thing said about this team, regardless of how you want to label the source of the criticism, is justified.

Anyone who said this organization sucked at any point this season, was right.  Somebody joked if we made changes, we'd be like the raiders.

If we keep doing what we're doing, We may end up worse than the raiders.

I don't know if anyone saw last Thursday's game, but the tony Sparano's led Raiders would easily kick our ass right now.  All criticism is deserved, to anyone it is pointed at, that is a jets employee.

Seaver wrote:funny how a fanbase that hasn't seen a Superbowl since 1969 is portrayed as 'impatient'.........patience is all we have known and quite frankly we are tired of the buffoons hired to the front office over the years.  

Perhaps we were too impatient with Rich Kotite as well.

I've been a Jets fan for over thirty years. I know all about being frustrated with losing and mediocrity.

The point I was making with that "tongue in cheek" job offer was that there's a difference between frustration with a team that has underperformed, and bringing out the machine gun to take out everyone associated with decision-making. I see mistakes made by Idzik. I'm not blindly falling in line lockstep with the guy. But as 51 said, it's not a matter of simply pulling out the phone book and getting some Hall of Fame GM in here. Like great QB's, great football minds don't grow on trees. A GM needs a plan, and some time to implement that plan. One and a half years isn't nearly long enough.

And I say that while admitting that Idzik's 2014 draft left a lot to be desired. At least, the early returns aren't looking great.

Seaver wrote:funny how a fanbase that hasn't seen a Superbowl since 1969 is portrayed as 'impatient'.........patience is all we have known and quite frankly we are tired of the buffoons hired to the front office over the years.  

Perhaps we were too impatient with Rich Kotite as well.

I don't understand how this makes Jets fans "patient."

If you root for a team that hasn't won in a half century, but call for coaches and GMs to be fired and QBs to be benched at the drop of a hat, that doesn't make you patient.

Of course, if that coach is a likeable guy, then it's different. He couldn't possibly be at all responsible for anything.

Superman55 wrote:

Sarge wrote:The team is 2-9, criticism is deserved and much of it is valid, but the current toxic situation is the result of tabloid media types seeing the opportunity to draw attention to themselves, Internet trolls who thrive at times like these, defeatist crybaby immature fans, and sincere decent fans who are frustrated

Every harsh thing said about this team, regardless of how you want to label the source of the criticism, is justified.

Anyone who said this organization sucked at any point this season, was right.  Somebody joked if we made changes, we'd be like the raiders.

If we keep doing what we're doing, We may end up worse than the raiders.

I don't know if anyone saw last Thursday's game, but the tony Sparano's led Raiders would easily kick our ass right now.  All criticism is deserved, to anyone it is pointed at, that is a jets employee.

If wholesale changes need to be made, fine. Idzik out with Rex.

What bothers me is that I know this fan base is filled with enough moronic, reactionary, kneejerk fans who will give the new regime one preseason half of football before turning on them, if that long. It may come with the first draft pick that isn't their guy.

SackExchange wrote:

Superman55 wrote:

Sarge wrote:The team is 2-9, criticism is deserved and much of it is valid, but the current toxic situation is the result of tabloid media types seeing the opportunity to draw attention to themselves, Internet trolls who thrive at times like these, defeatist crybaby immature fans, and sincere decent fans who are frustrated

Every harsh thing said about this team, regardless of how you want to label the source of the criticism, is justified.

Anyone who said this organization sucked at any point this season, was right.  Somebody joked if we made changes, we'd be like the raiders.

If we keep doing what we're doing, We may end up worse than the raiders.

I don't know if anyone saw last Thursday's game, but the tony Sparano's led Raiders would easily kick our ass right now.  All criticism is deserved, to anyone it is pointed at, that is a jets employee.

If wholesale changes need to be made, fine. Idzik out with Rex.

What bothers me is that I know this fan base is filled with enough moronic, reactionary, kneejerk fans who will give the new regime one preseason half of football before turning on them, if that long. It may come with the first draft pick that isn't their guy.

so be it.........it's not working with this guy. He had his purge and he picked his QB......and this team is going in wrong direction. No HC can win w/o talent.......no matter if it was his own guy. I've never seen a collective reaction from a fanbase/media towards a GM like this one. Billboards, planes, talk shows, news articles, etc............I'm at the very least applying the where's there is smoke there is fire theory. Yes, he has done that bad a job.

John Idzik preached he would build the Jets via the draft. He has failed in that aspect. Time to go.

Seaver wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

Superman55 wrote:

Sarge wrote:The team is 2-9, criticism is deserved and much of it is valid, but the current toxic situation is the result of tabloid media types seeing the opportunity to draw attention to themselves, Internet trolls who thrive at times like these, defeatist crybaby immature fans, and sincere decent fans who are frustrated

Every harsh thing said about this team, regardless of how you want to label the source of the criticism, is justified.

Anyone who said this organization sucked at any point this season, was right.  Somebody joked if we made changes, we'd be like the raiders.

If we keep doing what we're doing, We may end up worse than the raiders.

I don't know if anyone saw last Thursday's game, but the tony Sparano's led Raiders would easily kick our ass right now.  All criticism is deserved, to anyone it is pointed at, that is a jets employee.

If wholesale changes need to be made, fine. Idzik out with Rex.

What bothers me is that I know this fan base is filled with enough moronic, reactionary, kneejerk fans who will give the new regime one preseason half of football before turning on them, if that long. It may come with the first draft pick that isn't their guy.

so be it.........it's not working with this guy.  He had his purge and he picked his QB......and this team is going in wrong direction.  No HC can win w/o talent.......no matter if it was his own guy.  I've never seen a collective reaction from a fanbase/media towards a GM like this one.  Billboards, planes, talk shows, news articles, etc............I'm at the very least applying the where's there is smoke there is fire theory.  Yes, he has done that bad a job.  

John Idzik preached he would build the Jets via the draft.  He has failed in that aspect.  Time to go.

Will it be worth working with the next guy if he does not produce immediate results?

The only way for a Jets GM to appease the fan base is to get immediate results. The only way to do that is to spend in free agency and trade youth for experienced veterans.

Whomever replaces Idzik is going to have to do that. It will mean once again being tight to the cap. It may mean the departures of guys like Wilkerson and Richardson, if they can't fit under the cap. Draft picks will be traded for experienced veterans, and the team will be a playoff contender again pretty quickly.

But they won't be a championship team. Very seldom are Super Bowl winners built that way.

So either hire a guy who is willing to trade the future for the present to appease the fan base, or bring in a guy who the fans will want fired because the team is not immediately successful. That's what we are reduced to.

In neither scenario do I see even a hope at a title.

the plan to build is sound.......the execution was horrible. Doesn't mean the plan has to be scrapped, just need a better guy to guide it.

the new guy coming in........under the conditions that currently exist will be judged on how he handles the most important position on the field. John Idzik, fair or not, is being judged because Geno Smith is his guy. Geno is one of the worst starting QBs to wear the green since the last one......and fans still have that bad taste in their mouths......and want no more of it.

Right or wrong, John Idzik is tied at the hip to Geno Smith......and that choice has been a disaster. Maybe not so much in the actual drafting (though I was no fan of it) but in the staunch belief/support that this was his QB.......he undermined himself with that one. It's the most visible position. Add in the other missed picks and it makes at the very least a circumstantial case of a guy who can't pull off what he promised - build via draft.

Seaver wrote:John Idzik, fair or not, is being judged because Geno Smith is his guy.  Geno is one of the worst starting QBs to wear the green since the last one......and fans still have that bad taste in their mouths......and want no more of it.  

Right or wrong, John Idzik is tied at the hip to Geno Smith......and that choice has been a disaster.  

Geno Smith was not a 1st round QB. He was not a QB idzik traded up for. Smith was a QB who fell to a spot where Idzik took a shot at him. I am not sure how that ties him to his hip. If fans are tying him to his hip I vote wrong.