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    Post by Seaver on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:03

    we already are at the fork in the road........do they wait for Geno to learn or do they move on. Geno never was a prolific passer.....he got the ball into the hands of playmakers fast and let them get the yards. That won't work at this level - the speed of the players is too great. An NFL QB has to find the seams down the field and nail them. Have we seen him complete a back shoulder throw?

    Quite honestly....the kid means well.........but he is really just backup material. I do think he can carve out an NFL career sitting behind starters and maybe years down the road he will have evolved enough to be a competent starter - like a Josh McCown has done......but right now this is way over his head and the Jets cannot be trapped by his limitations.
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    Post by Superman55 on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:14

    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    Geno has lots of warts, and he has 9 games as the Jets QB left in my book unless he improves his decision making a great deal.

    But I don't care if you had Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Joe Montana at QB, if your WRs are David Nelson, Stephen Hill, Cyde gates, and Santonio Holmes, with jeff Cumberland at TE you're going to have bottom 10 QB play when the season ends...

    You don't learn how to play QB in the NFL by throwing to Stephen Hill, Holmes, Nelson, and Cumberland...no one would be successful in that environment.

    Blaming all our offensive problems on Geno is too broad a brush for me and feels like lazy analysis.

    Especially when you consider the pathetic WRs and how poorly our OL has been constructed under Idzik as well (DB, OL, and WRs till now...you can add QB if you want).

    Seriously, 3/5s of our oline is Idzik players: Gia, Winters, and Colon...or our 3 worst lineman by miles. Aboushi looks like a find to me, but still way too early to tell. But how well has our oline been constructed? They looked great against Denver and the Chargers didn't they? Rolling Eyes

    I think our offensive problems go past 1 player, but call me crazy.
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    Post by Superman55 on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:15

    Seaver wrote:we already are at the fork in the road........do they wait for Geno to learn or do they move on.  Geno never was a prolific passer.....he got the ball into the hands of playmakers fast and let them get the yards.  That won't work at this level - the speed of the players is too great.  An NFL QB has to find the seams down the field and nail them.  Have we seen him complete a back shoulder throw?  

    Quite honestly....the kid means well.........but he is really just backup material.  I do think he can carve out an NFL career sitting behind starters and maybe years down the road he will have evolved enough to be a competent starter - like a Josh McCown has done......but right now this is way over his head and the Jets cannot be trapped by his limitations.

    Maybe you're right.
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    Post by Superman55 on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:17

    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    hahahahahahahaha

    For his career, Brady completes just over 20% of his passes that travel more than 10 yards in the air. Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

    This year, it's closer to 10%.

    Guess he's not a complete QB.
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    Post by Seaver on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:36

    Superman55 wrote:
    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    Geno has lots of warts, and he has 9 games as the Jets QB left in my book unless he improves his decision making a great deal.

    But I don't care if you had Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Joe Montana at QB, if your WRs are David Nelson, Stephen Hill, Cyde gates, and Santonio Holmes, with jeff Cumberland at TE you're going to have bottom 10 QB play when the season ends...

    You don't learn how to play QB in the NFL by throwing to Stephen Hill, Holmes, Nelson, and Cumberland...no one would be successful in that environment.

    Blaming all our offensive problems on Geno is too broad a brush for me and feels like lazy analysis.

    Especially when you consider the pathetic WRs and how poorly our OL has been constructed under Idzik as well (DB, OL, and WRs till now...you can add QB if you want).

    Seriously, 3/5s of our oline is Idzik players: Gia, Winters, and Colon...or our 3 worst lineman by miles.  Aboushi looks like a find to me, but still way too early to tell.  But how well has our oline been constructed?  They looked great against Denver and the Chargers didn't they?   Rolling Eyes

    I think our offensive problems go past 1 player, but call me crazy.

    no way this all falls on Geno. But in the same vain you mention of not using too broad a brush......just because other units of a team may not be elite does not mean we can't evaluate a QB on his own merits. The OL is compromised greatly by the Guards -no doubt about it. The receivers are nothing great, but I also believe the QB contributes to this when his inaccuracy does not make defenses pay for single coverage. Geno too often is off target and misses opportunities. These get brushed aside when you see no INTs, but leaves plays on the field.

    I don't want to delve too far into the kid's issues....they are there for everyone to see......this is more about me having already moved on from Geno. I simply do not believe in him as 'the answer'. I do not want to wait on him. There are other candidates yet undiscovered that are going to be closer to helping this team than Geno will be in the near future.
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    Post by WilliesDad on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 15:53

    Next week we get to face a guy that was written off pretty early in his career as well (and who I wished we would have gone after), only to be revived by people and an organization who believed in him and supported him with a good cast of characters around (not saying that SF didn't have quality personnel on O when he was QB).

    I am not ready to give up on Geno and neither is the organization. My hope is that MM is learning more about his QB and will thus continue to tailor his game plan to Geno's strengths, while management continues to add quality pieces around him.
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    Post by Seaver on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 17:00

    WilliesDad wrote:Next week we get to face a guy that was written off pretty early in his career as well (and who I wished we would have gone after), only to be revived by people and an organization who believed in him and supported him with a good cast of characters around (not saying that SF didn't have quality personnel on O when he was QB).  

    I am not ready to give up on Geno and neither is the organization.  My hope is that MM is learning more about his QB and will thus continue to tailor his game plan to Geno's strengths, while management continues to add quality pieces around him.

    but why do you want to wait on someone that may never arrive while still not showing the requisite signs of getting there anytime soon? Are we that afraid of making changes?
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    Post by Superman55 on Fri 24 Oct 2014 - 18:13

    Seaver wrote:
    Superman55 wrote:
    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    Geno has lots of warts, and he has 9 games as the Jets QB left in my book unless he improves his decision making a great deal.

    But I don't care if you had Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Joe Montana at QB, if your WRs are David Nelson, Stephen Hill, Cyde gates, and Santonio Holmes, with jeff Cumberland at TE you're going to have bottom 10 QB play when the season ends...

    You don't learn how to play QB in the NFL by throwing to Stephen Hill, Holmes, Nelson, and Cumberland...no one would be successful in that environment.

    Blaming all our offensive problems on Geno is too broad a brush for me and feels like lazy analysis.

    Especially when you consider the pathetic WRs and how poorly our OL has been constructed under Idzik as well (DB, OL, and WRs till now...you can add QB if you want).

    Seriously, 3/5s of our oline is Idzik players: Gia, Winters, and Colon...or our 3 worst lineman by miles.  Aboushi looks like a find to me, but still way too early to tell.  But how well has our oline been constructed?  They looked great against Denver and the Chargers didn't they?   Rolling Eyes

    I think our offensive problems go past 1 player, but call me crazy.

    no way this all falls on Geno.  But in the same vain you mention of not using too broad a brush......just because other units of a team may not be elite does not mean we can't evaluate a QB on his own merits.  The OL is compromised greatly by the Guards -no doubt about it.  The receivers are nothing great, but I also believe the QB contributes to this when his inaccuracy does not make defenses pay for single coverage.  Geno too often is off target and misses opportunities.  These get brushed aside when you see no INTs, but leaves plays on the field.  

    I don't want to delve too far into the kid's issues....they are there for everyone to see......this is more about me having already moved on from Geno.  I simply do not believe in him as 'the answer'.  I do not want to wait on him.  There are other candidates yet undiscovered that are going to be closer to helping this team than Geno will be in the near future.  

    We agree there for sure. I do not want to wait any more either. He has 9 meaningless games to showcase himself, then we'll likely move on to the next guy. Now that we have B+ skill positions, instead of the F quality skill positions we had last year, I think we have a good unit to develop a young QB. Maybe Geno will surprise me these last 9 games, but I think we already destroyed him by sending him into battle with a good luck penny as a weapon. Now we give him a AR-15 and hope he isn't too offset by the fact we've sent him into battle 23 times with a good luck penny. maybe he'll turn it around, but i doubt it so no point in waiting. We've likely already destroyed this young QB and we're better set for the next one.
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    Post by WilliesDad on Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 11:03

    Seaver wrote:
    WilliesDad wrote:Next week we get to face a guy that was written off pretty early in his career as well (and who I wished we would have gone after), only to be revived by people and an organization who believed in him and supported him with a good cast of characters around (not saying that SF didn't have quality personnel on O when he was QB).  

    I am not ready to give up on Geno and neither is the organization.  My hope is that MM is learning more about his QB and will thus continue to tailor his game plan to Geno's strengths, while management continues to add quality pieces around him.

    but why do you want to wait on someone that may never arrive while still not showing the requisite signs of getting there anytime soon?  Are we that afraid of making changes?  

    Sorry for taking so long to respond Seaver. I guess it comes down to what we know vs. what we don't know. That is, there are no guarantees when drafting another QB, unless that guy is universally seen as a sure thing - ie: Luck. Who knows if anyone we draft will be better than what we already have. It's a crap shoot and if we keep using high draft picks every couple of years on QB's, than we are also reducing the effective shelf-live of the weapons that we have obtained - Decker, Amaro, Kerley, Harvin, while we keep searching for that elusive all-star QB. In short, better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

    Obviously they saw something in Geno when they drafted him. Now that they have started give him some tools, MM needs to do a better job developing him. IMO, MM is a major contributor to the problems that the offense and Geno have had. He needs to tailor his game plan to what he has to work with - strong running game, mobile QB, great catching RB in CJ2K, etc. And he seems reluctant to do that on a consistent basis.

    I believe that Geno has shown progress. Is he perfect? No, not at all and he needs to keep working at his craft. But he is better than he was and, with the right guidance and support, I think he will continue to improve and become a solid starting NFL QB. Hopefully with the Jets.
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    Post by HYATT™ on Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 21:42

    Foo.
    Do you go to battle with the HOPE of a young QB who MIGHT progress, or into battle with a QB you already know WON'T progress significantly in Year 3?
    Every year is a crap shoot, but I'll take a new unknown crap shoot over one that virtually guarantees a failure outcome, EVERY time.
    Geno got that same deal.
    Snatchez was a KNOWN failure, Mr. Smith was HOPE for a different outcome.
    It didn't pan out and it's time to go back to the well, but at least there was a POSSIBILITY, whereas NONE existed had Dirty hung around as the starting QB.
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    Post by Metjetgal on Sun 26 Oct 2014 - 23:14

    This guy was AWFUL today
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    Post by Superman55 on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 9:44

    HYATT™ wrote:Foo.
    Do you go to battle with the HOPE of a young QB who MIGHT progress, or into battle with a QB you already know WON'T progress significantly in Year 3?
    Every year is a crap shoot, but I'll take a new unknown crap shoot over one that virtually guarantees a failure outcome, EVERY time.
    Geno got that same deal.
    Snatchez was a KNOWN failure, Mr. Smith was HOPE for a different outcome.
    It didn't pan out and it's time to go back to the well, but at least there was a POSSIBILITY, whereas NONE existed had Dirty hung around as the starting QB.

    Agreed. Time to go back to the well.
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    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 10:37

    they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?
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    Post by skop on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 10:54

    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    Idzik took the best available QB on the board. No shame in that.

    I felt terribly for the kid yesterday.
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    Post by The Wicker Man on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 10:59

    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    I'm not so sure if the Wizard of Id thought GS was the answer, he'll fell to us in rd. 2
    and he probably figured he's worth a shot. Thank God we didn't
    pick him in round 1....then again, Milliner is no gem. It's early yet, but Idzik is not
    exactly striking gold in his 1st 2 years.
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    Post by skop on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 11:03

    Superman55 wrote:
    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    hahahahahahahaha

    For his career, Brady completes just over 20% of his passes that travel more than 10 yards in the air.  Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

    This year, it's closer to 10%.

    Guess he's not a complete QB.

    Brady takes what Defenses give him, frustrates them, and then they break/do something dumb/overreach/ etc. Rich Gannon was calling the game yesterday, and pointing out all of the time Geno was looking down field, but had wide open TE's right in front of him for 5-7 yard pitch & catches...

    He has to start seeing that D's are going to give that. 3.34 yards at a time and you never have to come off of the field.
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    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 11:06

    ok....I can live with the explanation of 'board value'.....though personally speaking I hated the pick then.......so for me it still comes back to this clown not being able to recognize NFL talent.

    That aside......he still had the 2014 draft........after having witnessed Geno be so bad in 2013. There was nothing screaming that he was just a bit rough around the edges........nothing that should've precluded the GM from taking another shot. It's that thought process that bothers the hell out of me. There's no Plan B on this roster........
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    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 11:43

    Superman55 wrote:
    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    hahahahahahahaha

    For his career, Brady completes just over 20% of his passes that travel more than 10 yards in the air.  Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

    This year, it's closer to 10%.

    Guess he's not a complete QB.
    I had the same thought. Geno has failed, but to blast him for being a guy in college who threw short passes and had playmakers use their speed is just ignoring how Brady has made a career of short passes and checkdowns.
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    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 11:47

    The Wicker Man wrote:
    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    I'm not so sure if the Wizard of Id thought GS was the answer, he'll fell to us in rd. 2
    and he probably figured he's worth a shot. Thank God we didn't
    pick him in round 1....then again, Milliner is no gem. It's early yet, but Idzik is not
    exactly striking gold in his 1st 2 years.
    You can be a lot more definitive about Geno than you can about Milliner. The jury is definitely still out with him.

    Richardson and Amaro look good. He has his hits, and he has his misses.

    Problem is, other teams are allowed to miss on some draft picks. Jets fans notoriously bash our team's picks before they have a chance to prove anything. Besides, some Jets fans seem convinced that we're the only team in the league who has busts.
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    Post by skop on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 12:00

    SackExchange wrote:
    The Wicker Man wrote:
    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    I'm not so sure if the Wizard of Id thought GS was the answer, he'll fell to us in rd. 2
    and he probably figured he's worth a shot. Thank God we didn't
    pick him in round 1....then again, Milliner is no gem. It's early yet, but Idzik is not
    exactly striking gold in his 1st 2 years.
    You can be a lot more definitive about Geno than you can about Milliner. The jury is definitely still out with him.

    Richardson and Amaro look good. He has his hits, and he has his misses.

    Problem is, other teams are allowed to miss on some draft picks. Jets fans notoriously bash our team's picks before they have a chance to prove anything. Besides, some Jets fans seem convinced that we're the only team in the league who has busts.

    Absolutely...James Farrior comes to mind.
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    Post by NYJETSDAN16 on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 12:01

    SackExchange wrote:
    The Wicker Man wrote:
    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    I'm not so sure if the Wizard of Id thought GS was the answer, he'll fell to us in rd. 2
    and he probably figured he's worth a shot. Thank God we didn't
    pick him in round 1....then again, Milliner is no gem. It's early yet, but Idzik is not
    exactly striking gold in his 1st 2 years.
    You can be a lot more definitive about Geno than you can about Milliner. The jury is definitely still out with him.

    Richardson and Amaro look good. He has his hits, and he has his misses.

    Problem is, other teams are allowed to miss on some draft picks. Jets fans notoriously bash our team's picks before they have a chance to prove anything. Besides, some Jets fans seem convinced that we're the only team in the league who has busts.

    We all knew this was going to take time, and quite possibly, the fruits of having Idzik here will flourish in year three:

    Draft a high profile franchise QB in Mariota to go along with already set skill set positions acquired by John in CJ2k, Amaro Decker Ivory & Harvin.

    Anty up on signing or trading for a stud CB.

    Re-solidify our weaknesses on the O-Line.

    All these things, imho will be had, especially with $50 mil under the cap. The guy is building here and will take year three to see how it comes together.

    Also a new disciplined coach that will kep this team in check on the field instead of making regressive dumb penalties constantly.
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    Post by Blindsidebrick on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 12:16

    NYJETSDAN16 wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    The Wicker Man wrote:
    Seaver wrote:they need a different set of eyes looking down that well.........if Idzik thought Geno was the answer and didn't find the need to draft higher this year with one of the 12 picks for another......why in the hell would we want him picking again?

    I'm not so sure if the Wizard of Id thought GS was the answer, he'll fell to us in rd. 2
    and he probably figured he's worth a shot. Thank God we didn't
    pick him in round 1....then again, Milliner is no gem. It's early yet, but Idzik is not
    exactly striking gold in his 1st 2 years.
    You can be a lot more definitive about Geno than you can about Milliner. The jury is definitely still out with him.

    Richardson and Amaro look good. He has his hits, and he has his misses.

    Problem is, other teams are allowed to miss on some draft picks. Jets fans notoriously bash our team's picks before they have a chance to prove anything. Besides, some Jets fans seem convinced that we're the only team in the league who has busts.

    We all knew this was going to take time, and quite possibly, the fruits of having Idzik here will flourish in year three:

    Draft a high profile franchise QB in Mariota to go along with already set skill set positions acquired by John in CJ2k, Amaro Decker Ivory & Harvin.

    Anty up on signing or trading for a stud CB.

    Re-solidify our weaknesses on the O-Line.

    All these things, imho will be had, especially with $50 mil under the cap. The guy is building here and will take year three to see how it comes together.

    Also a new disciplined coach that will kep this team in check on the field instead of making regressive dumb penalties constantly.

    Pretty much the optimistic view, and one I share. I think a lot of the Idzik bashing is way over the top, but I do agree that he's gonna have to open the check book a little wider this off season. It clear that Allen and Walls aren't suitable fill in's for Milliner and whoever else.

    Our biggest problem is not having a franchise QB. Neither Geno nor Vick is the answer. Frankly, I don't know what we're gonna do. I don't see anything near an immediate answer on the horizon.
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    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 13:42

    patting a GM on the back for getting a 1st and/or 2nd round pick correct is fluff. Show me the GM who finds starters/contributors in rounds 3+ and that is a winning roster.
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    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 13:47

    Seaver wrote:patting a GM on the back for getting a 1st and/or 2nd round pick correct is fluff.  Show me the GM who finds starters/contributors in rounds 3+ and that is a winning roster.  
    Agreed. But it usually takes more than 1 1/2 seasons for many of those guys to develop into top contributors and starters.

    Not that Jets fans have that sort of patience.
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    Post by McJet on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 13:57

    skop wrote:
    Superman55 wrote:
    Seaver wrote:he gave Manning that talent but Manning still made his share of mistakes the rookie season.  The QB still has control over his own good/bad decisions.  Geno is not good at them down the field 10+ yards. He's not a complete QB, thus he cannot be a franchise QB.

    hahahahahahahaha

    For his career, Brady completes just over 20% of his passes that travel more than 10 yards in the air.  Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

    This year, it's closer to 10%.

    Guess he's not a complete QB.

    Brady takes what Defenses give him, frustrates them, and then they break/do something dumb/overreach/ etc. Rich Gannon was calling the game yesterday, and pointing out all of the time Geno was looking down field, but had wide open TE's right in front of him for 5-7 yard pitch & catches...

    He has to start seeing that D's are going to give that. 3.34 yards at a time and you never have to come off of the field.

    Yea, the problem is that's when Vick was in the game.

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      Current date/time is Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 19:44