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    GratefulJet
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 9:00

    Old#15 wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.

    There are a lot of ways to spin these arguments.  All three of the examples you give are on at least practice squads elsewhere, so its' not like they were complete busts.  In fact they may become valuable contributors elsewhere with the right coaching and situation, and the same people who bemoan Idzik's drafting acumen will say we should have stashed them on the roster.  As with most developmental picks they weren't ready to contribute this year.   If they were protected on the active roster people would have complained about taking up valuable space with guys who won't be ready for a year or two.  You can't have it both ways, or all three ways  Smile.  Also guys like Evans, McDougle, Dozier and Enunwa were in the opinion of many draft evaluators very good value.  What if they pop in years 2 or 3 as some developmental players do?  Bottom line it is too early to tell definitively how both of Idzik's drafts will pan out.  He came in with a long term plan, but is unfortunately being judged by those who can't see past the beer or keyboard sitting in front of them.  He also came into a job handicapped by a very thin and expensive roster and a head coach who has done very little in developing young players in the preceding four seasons.   Ryan won with free agents and players drafted before his time with the Jets, and his teams have won about 30% of the time since.  When is Ryan going to be judged as harshly as Idzik?  

    Sorry, but you're the one doing all the spinning here. He has squandered assets by drafting and then cutting Saunders, George, and Dixon. Whether they are on someone else's roster or not is irrelevant to the question of the value we are getting from those picks, which is precisely zero now and forever.

    Evans, Dozier, Enunwa, IK...yes, those guys may develop with time. I was excited about them after the draft, back when I was still drinking the Idzik koolaid. My point is that so far not one of John's later round (4th or later) picks has emerged or in any way exceeded their already low expectations. You like to think that maybe one would have, especially given the apparently poor quality of our gameday roster.

    Ryan doesn't escape criticism. The team's quality of play is a direct result of his coaching. Just as I am not going to hold Idzik responsible for that, I am not going to hold Rex responsible for the draft. Player development may indeed be an issue. We would have to compare how our discards end up performing elsewhere, versus the "mean" whatever that might be. But on draft day, it is Idzik who has to be accountable. We'll see how it plays out, but for me so far the returns have been disappointing. If you disagree, good for you. Hopefully you're right about him and he has a bang-up draft in 2015.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 9:07

    SackExchange wrote:
    Old#15 wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.

    There are a lot of ways to spin these arguments.  All three of the examples you give are on at least practice squads elsewhere, so its' not like they were complete busts.  In fact they may become valuable contributors elsewhere with the right coaching and situation, and the same people who bemoan Idzik's drafting acumen will say we should have stashed them on the roster.  As with most developmental picks they weren't ready to contribute this year.   If they were protected on the active roster people would have complained about taking up valuable space with guys who won't be ready for a year or two.  You can't have it both ways, or all three ways  Smile.  Also guys like Evans, McDougle, Dozier and Enunwa were in the opinion of many draft evaluators very good value.  What if they pop in years 2 or 3 as some developmental players do?  Bottom line it is too early to tell definitively how both of Idzik's drafts will pan out.  He came in with a long term plan, but is unfortunately being judged by those who can't see past the beer or keyboard sitting in front of them.  He also came into a job handicapped by a very thin and expensive roster and a head coach who has done very little in developing young players in the preceding four seasons.   Ryan won with free agents and players drafted before his time with the Jets, and his teams have won about 30% of the time since.  When is Ryan going to be judged as harshly as Idzik?  
    The problem is, with Jets fans and the media, just like GMs are hanged in effigy before they can actually implement a plan, draft picks are judged before they have a chance to develop.

    Essentially, Jets fans and the media rally around homegrown guys, but they don't want to wait for young players to develop. They don't want to wait on a player-by-player basis, and they don't want to wait for a rebuild. So any GM who comes here is thrust into a win-now mentality, and can only do that by trading picks for veterans and signing free agents. Of course, since those guys aren't homegrown, fans complain about not developing talent, even though they are the ones who refuse to wait for talent to develop.

    I just made several thought-out posts in which I spelled out my dissatisfaction with the job Idzik has done drafting so far, and went into a fair amount of detail on a point-by-point basis. Your indirect response is this passive-aggressive grouping of anyone who criticizes the job Idzik has done with the "FIRE IDZIK!"crowd and the Idzik-bashing media. So apparently there isn't any room for analysis in your world, which is starting to look a lot like Sarah Palin's "lamestream media" world. You just lump everyone together, then tar them all with the same broad brush. You're doing exactly what you criticize others for doing.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Old#15 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 9:11

    It also bugs me how Ryan gets a pass because the offense is so bad, thus in some perverted way preserving his reputation as some sort of defensive genius. Guess what folks, that is HIS offense not someone else's. Besides, the defense is ranked near bottom of league in the most important defensive stats: points allowed and 3rd down efficiency. I don't see a defensive genius, I see an egotistical, stubborn coach whose defense is pretty bad. I've got a huge h...on for Ryan right now because his teams over the last 6 years have gotten nothing but worse. I just hope that Idzik has the horsepower with Woody to finally bring in his own guy.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Metjetgal on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 9:15

    SackExchange wrote:
    Metjetgal wrote:The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.
    If he solves the franchise QB problem and the team shows improvement...not even playoffs, necessarily, but around .500...then he has the franchise back on the right track.

    Right now, the choice of the next QB of the Jets is absolutely critical. The wrong choice, and it will end Idzik's Jets career. The right choice, and he's the man.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 9:24

    Old#15 wrote:It also bugs me how Ryan gets a pass because the offense is so bad, thus in some perverted way preserving his reputation as some sort of defensive genius.  Guess what folks, that is HIS offense not someone else's.  Besides, the defense is ranked near bottom of league in the most important defensive stats: points allowed and 3rd down efficiency.  I don't see a defensive genius, I see an egotistical, stubborn coach whose defense is pretty bad.  I've  got a huge h...on for Ryan right now because his teams over the last 6 years have gotten nothing but worse.  I just hope that Idzik has the horsepower with Woody to finally bring in his own guy.  

    I don't think anyone is giving Rex a pass, so to speak. There is certainly a sense that he doesn't have NFL talent to work with in the secondary, which would fall on Idzik. Your point about the offense is well taken. He can't get a pass on that. Fact is, this team stinks on both sides of the ball. Some of that is on Idzik, some on Tanny, and some on Rex for not developing players better.

    Rex and John both seem like nice guys. I think Rex knows football really well, but his record and the current quality of play speak for themselves. He is done here, the only question being whether he is left to play out the string, which I think he will be, because who are they going to bring in mid-season to replace him?

    It may bear noting that Idzik had nothing but good things to say about Rex in yesterday's PC. So if you are buying into Idzik, you have to take his comments about Rex as part of the package, for whatever that is worth. Rex is just in over his head as HC. He's a DC through and through.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by cysporsche on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 10:52

    I'm beginning to think the down fall of the Jets is Rex's fault and not Idzik's. We had a strong and upcoming team when Mangini was HC before he was fired. Rex jumped in and helped tweak our defense, and became the players coach.

    Mangini (I'm not a Mangini guy) built a good team, Rex rode the wave of two consecutive playoff years, and the team has gradually started to crash & burn.

    Also, with all the top draft picks on defense, I could coach that unit to success ! What I'm saying, is I'm beginning to think that Rex is over his head as HC. He is a DC and that's all. If fired, I doubt we ever see Rex as nothing more than as a defensive coordinator somewhere.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Seaver on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 10:55

    maybe Idzik should've traded up seeing that he hits on 1st/2nd round picks......seems like after that he was throwing darts at the wall or picking names out of a hat. If he was hell bent on the ensuing 10 picks then you have to question what he was looking at.

    Nothing in that presser dispels the notion that he is a bit lost.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 11:37

    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    Old#15 wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.

    There are a lot of ways to spin these arguments.  All three of the examples you give are on at least practice squads elsewhere, so its' not like they were complete busts.  In fact they may become valuable contributors elsewhere with the right coaching and situation, and the same people who bemoan Idzik's drafting acumen will say we should have stashed them on the roster.  As with most developmental picks they weren't ready to contribute this year.   If they were protected on the active roster people would have complained about taking up valuable space with guys who won't be ready for a year or two.  You can't have it both ways, or all three ways  Smile.  Also guys like Evans, McDougle, Dozier and Enunwa were in the opinion of many draft evaluators very good value.  What if they pop in years 2 or 3 as some developmental players do?  Bottom line it is too early to tell definitively how both of Idzik's drafts will pan out.  He came in with a long term plan, but is unfortunately being judged by those who can't see past the beer or keyboard sitting in front of them.  He also came into a job handicapped by a very thin and expensive roster and a head coach who has done very little in developing young players in the preceding four seasons.   Ryan won with free agents and players drafted before his time with the Jets, and his teams have won about 30% of the time since.  When is Ryan going to be judged as harshly as Idzik?  
    The problem is, with Jets fans and the media, just like GMs are hanged in effigy before they can actually implement a plan, draft picks are judged before they have a chance to develop.

    Essentially, Jets fans and the media rally around homegrown guys, but they don't want to wait for young players to develop. They don't want to wait on a player-by-player basis, and they don't want to wait for a rebuild. So any GM who comes here is thrust into a win-now mentality, and can only do that by trading picks for veterans and signing free agents. Of course, since those guys aren't homegrown, fans complain about not developing talent, even though they are the ones who refuse to wait for talent to develop.

    I just made several thought-out posts in which I spelled out my dissatisfaction with the job Idzik has done drafting so far, and went into a fair amount of detail on a point-by-point basis. Your indirect response is this passive-aggressive grouping of anyone who criticizes the job Idzik has done with the "FIRE IDZIK!"crowd and the Idzik-bashing media. So apparently there isn't any room for analysis in your world, which is starting to look a lot like Sarah Palin's "lamestream media" world. You just lump everyone together, then tar them all with the same broad brush. You're doing exactly what you criticize others for doing.
    I am not sure how much clearer I can make it when I say I agree with you on certain points. But that doesn't fit your narrative, so you just ignore it.

    I especially like how you didn't even reply to the post where I said I didn't disagree with you about one point, but then brought up where I did disagree with you. You then, of course, responded to later posts, so I know you saw when I said I didn't disagree with you. You just chose to ignore it.


    Last edited by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 11:44; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 11:41

    Seaver wrote:maybe Idzik should've traded up seeing that he hits on 1st/2nd round picks......seems like after that he was throwing darts at the wall or picking names out of a hat.  If he was hell bent on the ensuing 10 picks then you have to question what he was looking at.

    Nothing in that presser dispels the notion that he is a bit lost.
    I was a bit concerned myself about the quantity over quality approach. I prefer otherwise.

    To some degree, I understand it, because Idzik had inherited a team with very few draft choices the previous several years because of trades. But I still prefer the quality approach.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by LIJETFAN on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 11:52

    Sack & 51 - I think we all share concerns about Idzik. And I get the notion of patience, continuity and so on. But with respect to his drafts, without production on the field it doesn't matter if the player has potential or not. The Jets have been talking about potential for 40 years now. It falls on deaf ears at this point. Jet fans want results, not potential. Milliner, McDougle, Shaq Evans, whoever, they may all have potential. But they are not on the field. I get that they are injured. And in the case of McDougle and Milliner, both were injury prone in college, so it's hard to understand why the Jets would take on that kind of risk if the draft is your "life-line." Idzik's words, not mine.

    I come back to my earlier point - No one person is to blame for this mess. But, people need to be held accountable. This team and this organization is looking at a downward spiral that will take years to rebuild. When you have No QB, an entirely new coaching staff coming in, holes at multiple positions and some aging veterans at others, you are talking another 3 years at least assuming everything goes perfectly before you have a legitimate contender. And you know what, I am tired of waiting. Jet fans are tired of waiting. Right now, Idzik has done nothing to deserve my confidence at this point. His track record as a GM here is mediocre and I think that is a fair assessment. And Jet fans are frankly tired of mediocre. For me, I want to be excited about the future prospects of this franchise. I want to believe they have the right guys in the front office making decisions. I want to believe that the coaching staff is going to be able to put a team on the field that has a chance to win every game. I want to see a roster that has talent and depth and can match up against the league's best teams. Can you say that is the case now? Was it the case for most of last year? Do you have any confidence that next year this team will improve that much?

    I don't have confidence in the front office. We don't have a QB. We are chaining coaching staffs for sure. I don't have confidence that our personnel group can find and develop talent. I don't have confidence that anyone is being held accountable by the owner. In my opinion, the only way to change those perceptions (which is 9/10ths of reality) is to start over completely. Go out and find an experienced, talented GM that has a track record. Go out and find an experienced coach with a track record of success. Find your franchise QB in the draft and do whatever takes to get that player. And then, let's see what happens. That would be cause for some small degree of optimism that maybe this franchise can get turned around in the next few years. I don't believe Idzik is the guy to make that happen.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 12:12

    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.

    I stated that Amaro alone doesn't prove Idzik runs a good draft. Are you disagreeing?
    No, I'm not disagreeing. But I also think that the jury is still out on Pryor and on several others. McDougle? Who knows what Shaq Evans is? And last year, Richardson wasn't awful. Milliner could be a starter for years if he stays on the field. When Winters falters, Aboushi is there to step in.

    My main disagreement is with your dismissal of good early picks. You act like these should be givens, and not count toward Idzik, when we have seen both the Jets and other teams have awful first and second round picks.

    Ok, I did miss this.

    While I don't dismiss the good early picks completely, I guess I differ with respect to just how good they really are. I am not impressed by Pryor so far. He's had to go way outside his comfort zone, it's true, and that's 100% on Rex and idzik for trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. He's not a free safety, yet he's being asked to play centerfield. He's been very good in run support when called upon, but his skill set did not meet our needs. So not sure I agree it was a good use of that resource. We had more pressing needs than SS--CB, WR are two.

    Richardson and Amaro are both good picks. So at this point, out of the 2013-14 1st and 2nd rounders we have two that I can say were good picks. Milliner, Pryor, Smith: the best we can hope is that Milliner learns how to stay on the field and we start using Pryor in a role that leverages his strengths better. Smith is writeoff.

    The rest of the draft picks are a bunch of "who knows?" Winters in the 3rd last year? I don't think he's a starting G on a good team. McDougle in the 3rd I was excited about, although I felt we could have found better WR talent relatively speaking at that draft slot. The injury will hopefully not impact his effectiveness long term. Evans? His injury was a blessing, as he was dropping every pass in sight in TC. He was a threat to be cut. Aboushi--who knows? Very mixed so far since Winters went down.

    With some of the glaring holes we had in the roster, I'd have preferred Idzik focus on quality rather than quantity. That we had 12 picks and are already down to 9 left says that he was sub-optimal with those picks and his subsequent roster management. Losing George off the PS means Idzik didn't have a safe place to stash him or made a bad choice on who to keep on the 53 man. There is no justification for cutting Saunders (4th pick of the 4th round) so early in his rookie season unless he was a bad choice--that's simply a waste of a good pick. We got Ivory for a 4th. Past 4th round picks for us include Jerricho Cotchery, Leon Washington, Brad Smith--useful players are there if you have a good eye and a little luck.

    I agree it's too soon to pass final judgement on the 2014 draft class, or 2013 for that matter, but it's not too soon to start analyzing it and so far I am disappointed by the way we used our resources and addressed our many needs.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Blindsidebrick on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 12:17

    Metjetgal wrote:The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.

    "John Idzik's paranoia has fostered an unhealthy environment throughout the Jets organization for the past 21 months"- Manish Mehta.

    Is this the drama you speak of? Mehta speaks of insanity in describing our GM. I find that so ironic coming from this bitter this little man and his obsessive hatred for Idzik. It's scary, to be honest.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 12:33

    Blindsidebrick wrote:
    Metjetgal wrote:The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.

    "John Idzik's paranoia has fostered an unhealthy environment throughout the Jets organization for the past 21 months"- Manish Mehta.

    Is this the drama you speak of? Mehta speaks of insanity in describing our GM. I find that so ironic coming from this bitter this little man and his obsessive hatred for Idzik. It's scary, to be honest.

    He is a reporter, not a sports commentator. He has no business making judgements like that. He should be fired for his lack of objectivity. He is completely unprofessional.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by DonMaynard on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 13:04

    cysporsche wrote:I'm beginning to think the down fall of the Jets is Rex's fault and not Idzik's. We had a strong and upcoming team when Mangini was HC before he was fired. Rex jumped in and helped tweak our defense, and became the players coach.

    Mangini (I'm not a Mangini guy) built a good team, Rex rode the wave of two consecutive playoff years, and the team has gradually started to crash & burn.

    Also, with all the top draft picks on defense, I could coach that unit to success ! What I'm saying, is I'm beginning to think that Rex is over his head as HC. He is a DC and that's all. If fired, I doubt we ever see Rex as nothing more than as a defensive coordinator somewhere.

    Go Jets...Cyborg
      I couldn't agree more Cy! Penalties and turnovers , ultimately ,fall solely on the head coach's shoulders, and it's up to him to fix that.....not to mention the continuing problem of too many men on the field penalties. One ( Jet fan) can take only so much of that crap! As a DC , Rex is top notch , but please , aside from his misgivings as a head coach , it's time we got a HC who can focus on the weaknesses of the entire roster , without having the 'D' 1st mentality on draft day .
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 13:33

    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.

    I stated that Amaro alone doesn't prove Idzik runs a good draft. Are you disagreeing?
    No, I'm not disagreeing. But I also think that the jury is still out on Pryor and on several others. McDougle? Who knows what Shaq Evans is? And last year, Richardson wasn't awful. Milliner could be a starter for years if he stays on the field. When Winters falters, Aboushi is there to step in.

    My main disagreement is with your dismissal of good early picks. You act like these should be givens, and not count toward Idzik, when we have seen both the Jets and other teams have awful first and second round picks.

    Ok, I did miss this.

    While I don't dismiss the good early picks completely, I guess I differ with respect to just how good they really are. I am not impressed by Pryor so far. He's had to go way outside his comfort zone, it's true, and that's 100% on Rex and idzik for trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. He's not a free safety, yet he's being asked to play centerfield. He's been very good in run support when called upon, but his skill set did not meet our needs. So not sure I agree it was a good use of that resource. We had more pressing needs than SS--CB, WR are two.

    Richardson and Amaro are both good picks. So at this point, out of the 2013-14 1st and 2nd rounders we have two that I can say were good picks. Milliner, Pryor, Smith: the best we can hope is that Milliner learns how to stay on the field and we start using Pryor in a role that leverages his strengths better. Smith is writeoff.

    The rest of the draft picks are a bunch of "who knows?" Winters in the 3rd last year? I don't think he's a starting G on a good team. McDougle in the 3rd I was excited about, although I felt we could have found better WR talent relatively speaking at that draft slot. The injury will hopefully not impact his effectiveness long term. Evans? His injury was a blessing, as he was dropping every pass in sight in TC. He was a threat to be cut. Aboushi--who knows? Very mixed so far since Winters went down.

    With some of the glaring holes we had in the roster, I'd have preferred Idzik focus on quality rather than quantity. That we had 12 picks and are already down to 9 left says that he was sub-optimal with those picks and his subsequent roster management. Losing George off the PS means Idzik didn't have a safe place to stash him or made a bad choice on who to keep on the 53 man. There is no justification for cutting Saunders (4th pick of the 4th round) so early in his rookie season unless he was a bad choice--that's simply a waste of a good pick. We got Ivory for a 4th. Past 4th round picks for us include Jerricho Cotchery, Leon Washington, Brad Smith--useful players are there if you have a good eye and a little luck.

    I agree it's too soon to pass final judgement on the 2014 draft class, or 2013 for that matter, but it's not too soon to start analyzing it and so far I am disappointed by the way we used our resources and addressed our many needs.
    Oh, the jury is absolutely still out on Pryor. The question is, has his middling start to his rookie season been because of talent, or how that talent has been used?

    Understandable to be disappointed. I am only urging patience at this point, until we know for sure what we have, or don't have. It's not easy right now, and this is rock bottom, but stay the course.

    I know you are reasonable, and I know you aren't one of the kneejerk fans I mention in some of my comments. In fact, nobody on this new board is. Perhaps some of our old regulars who stayed there at the old board are that way. But I think we have over here a far more sophisticated segment of what can be at times a rather unsophisticated fan base.


    Last edited by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 13:40; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 13:35

    GratefulJet wrote:
    Blindsidebrick wrote:
    Metjetgal wrote:The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.

    "John Idzik's paranoia has fostered an unhealthy environment throughout the Jets organization for the past 21 months"- Manish Mehta.

    Is this the drama you speak of? Mehta speaks of insanity in describing our GM. I find that so ironic coming from this bitter this little man and his obsessive hatred for Idzik. It's scary, to be honest.

    He is a reporter, not a sports commentator. He has no business making judgements like that. He should be fired for his lack of objectivity. He is completely unprofessional.
    He really should be.

    None of this is about Idzik. It's about Mehta not having the inner leaks he used to have. Idzik runs a tighter ship, which is part of why I think he and Rex don't mesh too well.

    Idzik can be questioned for a lot of things. But this attack by Mehta is way off base...yet not surprising from him.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by football51 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:12

    We're all Jets fans here. We're all upset. Some are able to contain it better than others Very Happy . However, I think it's unfair for fans and especially media to constantly use the tired line about 40+ years and not winning. It's like you're so fed up that when someone new comers in, there's very little tolerance. Idzik can only control from 2013-present. It's also a shame that Idzik had to keep Rex instead of hiring his own coach. Over the past two days, I've resigned myself to the belief that everyone is going to get fired. Idzik included. There's blood in the water now and this fanbase and media members like Mehta, Francesa, and Cimini will force total change. Here's the latest......


    Manish Mehta @MMehtaNYDN · 18m 18 minutes ago
    Rex Ryan is far from perfect, but it's unfortunate that he's had to deal with such a general manager the past two seasons. #nyj





    Whomever we hire as gm is going to need to fit the following criteria to satisfy the masses.


    1. strong personnel background

    2. competent with the salary cap. if it's not a strength, hire a cap specialist.


    3. able to trade....... especially on draft day. beat writers love this.


    4. able to properly tender personnel(see Bradway with Coles)



    5. gives inside information to the beat writers. this is a must or he'll incur their wrath


    6. this one I just learned of yesterday. the new gm needs to have the delivery of Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson when speaking publicly. he's needs to be able to entertain the millions.......................... and millions of Jet haters/cynics out there.



    7. he needs to spend every cap dollar we have as soon as possible. if that means being unable to then extend one of our own quality, young talents, then so be it. then he also needs to be prepared to be called a fool for allowing that to happen.






    I guess Paul Allen didn't mind blowing cash and picks on Tavaris Jackson, Charlie Whitehurst, and Matt Flynn for two years before landing a quality qb in Wilson in year three. i guess Scneider wasn't dubbed "clueless" for throwing things against the wall and hoping that something stuck.


    These rosters don't look all that different from what we have right now.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/sea/year/2010

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/sea/year/2011



    it's a shame we won't be able to see what would've come of year three.






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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:40

    Basically, Idzik gets a short leash because the guys who preceded him in the job were incompetent.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:42

    SackExchange wrote:Basically, Idzik gets a short leash because the guys who preceded him in the job were incompetent.

    That, and a 1-7 start hasn't helped matters much.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:49

    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:Basically, Idzik gets a short leash because the guys who preceded him in the job were incompetent.

    That, and a 1-7 start hasn't helped matters much.
    Last offseason, after they had gone a surprising 8-8, he was getting bashed.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by soj on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:51

    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.

    I stated that Amaro alone doesn't prove Idzik runs a good draft. Are you disagreeing?
    No, I'm not disagreeing. But I also think that the jury is still out on Pryor and on several others. McDougle? Who knows what Shaq Evans is? And last year, Richardson wasn't awful. Milliner could be a starter for years if he stays on the field. When Winters falters, Aboushi is there to step in.

    My main disagreement is with your dismissal of good early picks. You act like these should be givens, and not count toward Idzik, when we have seen both the Jets and other teams have awful first and second round picks.

    Ok, I did miss this.

    While I don't dismiss the good early picks completely, I guess I differ with respect to just how good they really are. I am not impressed by Pryor so far. He's had to go way outside his comfort zone, it's true, and that's 100% on Rex and idzik for trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. He's not a free safety, yet he's being asked to play centerfield. He's been very good in run support when called upon, but his skill set did not meet our needs. So not sure I agree it was a good use of that resource. We had more pressing needs than SS--CB, WR are two.

    Richardson and Amaro are both good picks. So at this point, out of the 2013-14 1st and 2nd rounders we have two that I can say were good picks. Milliner, Pryor, Smith: the best we can hope is that Milliner learns how to stay on the field and we start using Pryor in a role that leverages his strengths better. Smith is writeoff.

    The rest of the draft picks are a bunch of "who knows?" Winters in the 3rd last year? I don't think he's a starting G on a good team. McDougle in the 3rd I was excited about, although I felt we could have found better WR talent relatively speaking at that draft slot. The injury will hopefully not impact his effectiveness long term. Evans? His injury was a blessing, as he was dropping every pass in sight in TC. He was a threat to be cut. Aboushi--who knows? Very mixed so far since Winters went down.

    With some of the glaring holes we had in the roster, I'd have preferred Idzik focus on quality rather than quantity. That we had 12 picks and are already down to 9 left says that he was sub-optimal with those picks and his subsequent roster management. Losing George off the PS means Idzik didn't have a safe place to stash him or made a bad choice on who to keep on the 53 man. There is no justification for cutting Saunders (4th pick of the 4th round) so early in his rookie season unless he was a bad choice--that's simply a waste of a good pick. We got Ivory for a 4th. Past 4th round picks for us include Jerricho Cotchery, Leon Washington, Brad Smith--useful players are there if you have a good eye and a little luck.

    I agree it's too soon to pass final judgement on the 2014 draft class, or 2013 for that matter, but it's not too soon to start analyzing it and so far I am disappointed by the way we used our resources and addressed our many needs.
    Oh, the jury is absolutely still out on Pryor. The question is, has his middling start to his rookie season been because of talent, or how that talent has been used?

    Understandable to be disappointed. I am only urging patience at this point, until we know for sure what we have, or don't have. It's not easy right now, and this is rock bottom, but stay the course.

    I know you are reasonable, and I know you aren't one of the kneejerk fans I mention in some of my comments. In fact, nobody on this new board is. Perhaps some of our old regulars who stayed there at the old board are that way. But I think we have over here a far more sophisticated segment of what can be at times a rather unsophisticated fan base.


    Payor is not a FS period. he was forced into that role and the book on him in college was that he took wrong angles which we see weekly so ... I'll reserve judgement. I do agree when he is at or close to the LOS he is effected....
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:53

    Oh, I absolutely agree. He is a SS. I don't like how he is being utilized, necessarily. But if given a shot to play SS, I think he could be very good.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by soj on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:58

    SackExchange wrote:Oh, I absolutely agree. He is a SS. I don't like how he is being utilized, necessarily. But if given a shot to play SS, I think he could be very good.

    Agree Sack the guy could be a stud... we'll see.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by football51 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:58

    Kimberley A. Martin @KMart_LI · 2h 2 hours ago
    Because he was so tough on Idzik yesterday, Francesa said he gave Idzik "every chance" to come on today's show -- but he declined #jets





    Why bother? Francesa would just ask and answer his own questions.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Seaver on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 15:59

    SackExchange wrote:
    Seaver wrote:maybe Idzik should've traded up seeing that he hits on 1st/2nd round picks......seems like after that he was throwing darts at the wall or picking names out of a hat.  If he was hell bent on the ensuing 10 picks then you have to question what he was looking at.

    Nothing in that presser dispels the notion that he is a bit lost.
    I was a bit concerned myself about the quantity over quality approach. I prefer otherwise.

    To some degree, I understand it, because Idzik had inherited a team with very few draft choices the previous several years because of trades. But I still prefer the quality approach.

    I'm with you on that......and I'm all for continuity......as long as it's good.

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