Idzik's state of the team

NickSINYC wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

NickSINYC wrote:Just one thing I would like to put out there. I get tired of hearing 12 picks and so many misses. Almost half of those picks were 6th and 7th round picks. Who honestly believe those type of player make an impact in a half of a season. Those are the type of players that take a few years and even if we hit on a couple that is a good job. 

We have 2 on the active roster and one on the practice squad. One was cut but has been active for another team. Then there is the one wasted Rex pick. I cant wait till he is gone and can't do that anymore. If he is around much longer we will be wasting a pick on his son.

True, but from a philosophical stance, I hate going quantity over quality. The one area I truly preferred Tanny was in his willingness to package deals to move up the draft board.

Too be honest Tannys pattern of trading up all the time was one of the reasons I wanted him gone. I think that kills team depth.

It does when you come out of a draft with only four guys. But when you end up with 12, and you can't fit most on the roster, that's just as bad.

You have to be sure when you trade up. Sanchez, Greene, Hill, and to an extent Keller all cost us picks which killed the depth on the team in 2011 & 2012. Tannenbaum had a 10 pick draft in 2006, then he thought he could become Trader Mike. He traded 3rd and 5th round picks in two separate deals for Jenkins and Braylon Edwards too. Jenkins battled weight/alcohol issues in Carolina and couldn't stay healthy here and Edwards was just a headcase. I think Idzik thought he could stash a few of his picks on the practice squad without anyone plucking them(after all, he doesn't know how to draft ). The Bucs and Jags ruined that to an extent.




I'll take a core special teamer in the 7th round for 4 years who can contribute on defense like Reilly any time. I think IK is going to contribute in the future too. He looked good in the preseason. Maybe Dozier will be our RG in 2015.

NickSINYC wrote:Just one thing I would like to put out there. I get tired of hearing 12 picks and so many misses. Almost half of those picks were 6th and 7th round picks. Who honestly believe those type of player make an impact in a half of a season. Those are the type of players that take a few years and even if we hit on a couple that is a good job. 

We have 2 on the active roster and one on the practice squad. One was cut but has been active for another team. Then there is the one wasted Rex pick. I cant wait till he is gone and can't do that anymore. If he is around much longer we will be wasting a pick on his son.

Bolded part is true and valid. But 25% of those picks were 4th rounders, and we are getting nothing out of any of them. With 3 4th round picks, you like to hope at least one becomes something resembling a contributor. Brad Smith, Jerricho Cotchery, Leon Washington--they were all 4th rounders. Of our 1st, 2nd and 3rd, only one is playing regularly and contributing. So we really have 1 out of 12 picks that is even making a contribution. That's why we have guys off the street starting at CB, which is pretty horrific. Yes, we've been very unlucky with injuries. You have to plan for that. We didn't plan effectively.

Draft picks are a limited resource, the high ones a precious commodity, and the low ones, the 6th and 7th rounders, are at the very least a lottery ticket. 12 is simply too many to find roster spots for all of them, and we found that out when Jeremiah George was plucked from our PS. A better use of those 12 picks would have been to package a few of them to get to 9 or 10 picks, improving draft position, or trading them for future draft picks. It's just sensible management of resources.

This is from today's NY Daily News Sunday Morning QB article.






IDZIK LOVE
Pete Carroll worked with John Idzik for three years with the Seahawks and came to the defense of the beleaguered Jets GM , saying it was “gallant” when he took responsibility for the team’s failures at his Oct. 27 news conference. “I don’t know how a guy can be stronger,” Carroll told me on WFAN last week. “He did it to protect his team, the club and the fans. I thought it was awesome. You got a great GM. You got a guy who is strong and tough and will obviously stand up and tell you exactly what is going on and take the heat and deal with it in an upfront manner. Just exactly what New Yorkers, I would think, would love. I don’t think he’s the one to blame. It takes time to get this thing done.”

When I mentioned to Carroll that the biggest complaint about Idzik is his lack of experience in personnel, he said Idzik was involved in everything the Seahawks did.

“He was part of the responsibility doing what we did to put this team together,” Carroll said. “We thought the world of him and he will do a great job.”

football51 wrote:This is from today's NY Daily News Sunday Morning QB article.






IDZIK LOVE
Pete Carroll worked with John Idzik for three years with the Seahawks and came to the defense of the beleaguered Jets GM , saying it was “gallant” when he took responsibility for the team’s failures at his Oct. 27 news conference. “I don’t know how a guy can be stronger,” Carroll told me on WFAN last week. “He did it to protect his team, the club and the fans. I thought it was awesome. You got a great GM. You got a guy who is strong and tough and will obviously stand up and tell you exactly what is going on and take the heat and deal with it in an upfront manner. Just exactly what New Yorkers, I would think, would love. I don’t think he’s the one to blame. It takes time to get this thing done.”

When I mentioned to Carroll that the biggest complaint about Idzik is his lack of experience in personnel, he said Idzik was involved in everything the Seahawks did.

“He was part of the responsibility doing what we did to put this team together,” Carroll said. “We thought the world of him and he will do a great job.”

Careful now, we don't want to destroy the bean counter narrative.

On the draft, I think there is a time and a place for both strategies. If I had to choose one over the other, I would say quality over quantity, but both strategies have their place.
As far the 12 picks, to me it doesn't matter because the GM can't afford to consistently miss on picks on any round. The teams that draft well find good players in the middle and late rounds, and they nail their first rounds consistently.

As far the Patriots - I just don't think we are in position to criticize Belchick's approach to personnel. They win the division every year and they are competing for the Super Bowl almost every year. They are never rebuilding, they are always retooling. Most of the players they draft will not make their roster. And they attract free agent interest far more than we do. Belichick has figured out how to manipulate the draft by loading up on picks through trades, and they hit one or two players a year, that keeps them retooled. And it works.

Tom Brady has been disguising NE's weaknesses for years. When you have an elite QB like him, you can be average, and even below average in other areas of the team, and still win 10-11 games. You "hit" on a QB of this caliber, you're set for 12 years.

If the Jets were lucky enough to have landed Brady in the 2000's, they'd have 2-3 SB rings by now. A franchise QB completely changes the entire complexion of any team. It glosses over the many misses that many successful teams still make in the draft.

Blindsidebrick wrote:Tom Brady has been disguising NE's weaknesses for years. When you have an elite QB like him, you can be average, and even below average in other areas of the team, and still win 10-11 games. You "hit" on a QB of this caliber, you're set for 12 years.

If the Jets were lucky enough to have landed Brady in the 2000's, they'd have 2-3 SB rings by now. A franchise QB completely changes the entire complexion of any team. It glosses over the many misses that many successful teams still make in the draft.

Agreed. I honestly think they're one of the worst drafting teams in the NFL.

NickSINYC wrote:Just one thing I would like to put out there. I get tired of hearing 12 picks and so many misses. Almost half of those picks were 6th and 7th round picks. Who honestly believe those type of player make an impact in a half of a season. Those are the type of players that take a few years and even if we hit on a couple that is a good job. 

We have 2 on the active roster and one on the practice squad. One was cut but has been active for another team. Then there is the one wasted Rex pick. I cant wait till he is gone and can't do that anymore. If he is around much longer we will be wasting a pick on his son.

Nick - how many teams cut their 4th and 5th rd picks by week 8...ever...

When you give up on young talent that fast, it tells me there was something seriously wrong with your scouting and selection process.

I'm not saying 4th and 5th rd picks aren't occasionally cut during the process, but both your 4th and 5th rd picks with just a mini camp, training camp, and abbreviated practices for 8 weeks?  That's too soon to give up on a player you loved 3 months before...

You could blame it on the player if it was just 1 player...but it was 2 high/mid rd picks by week 8, that points to an organizational issue...dance around it or not.

If it was the Raiders, you'd say that's just the Raiders. No decent organization cuts their 4th and 5th rd picks as early as we did...unless we're in bed with the Raiders, which we appear to be these days.

Superman55 wrote:

NickSINYC wrote:Just one thing I would like to put out there. I get tired of hearing 12 picks and so many misses. Almost half of those picks were 6th and 7th round picks. Who honestly believe those type of player make an impact in a half of a season. Those are the type of players that take a few years and even if we hit on a couple that is a good job. 

We have 2 on the active roster and one on the practice squad. One was cut but has been active for another team. Then there is the one wasted Rex pick. I cant wait till he is gone and can't do that anymore. If he is around much longer we will be wasting a pick on his son.

Nick - how many teams cut their 4th and 5th rd picks by week 8...ever...

When you give up on young talent that fast, it tells me there was something seriously wrong with your scouting and selection process.

I'm not saying 4th and 5th rd picks aren't occasionally cut during the process, but both your 4th and 5th rd picks with just a mini camp, training camp, and abbreviated practices for 8 weeks?  That's too soon to give up on a player you loved 3 months before...

You could blame it on the player if it was just 1 player...but it was 2 high/mid rd picks by week 8, that points to an organizational issue...dance around it or not.

If it was the Raiders, you'd say that's just the Raiders.  No decent organization cuts their 4th and 5th rd picks as early as we did...unless we're in bed with the Raiders, which we appear to be these days.

55, I could be wrong , but my impression is that Jeremiah George was lifted off our practice squad. He was not a cut. It's a roster management issue as much as a scouting/drafting acumen issue. Are we carrying guys on our 53 man that are really that good? Given our record, I'm skeptical. That said, it's ok if we're talking 6th/7th rounders, as long as you are getting guys you expect to at least compete for a roster spot. But if someone is good enough to be attractive to another team, you can't park him on your practice squad. Given how things played out in free agency, maybe a better use of all these draft picks would have been, if not trading up or trading for future picks, to just really hit CB and WR over and over. I realize they did that to some extent with WR (Saunders, Evans, Enunwa), but to then cut the first guy you drafted suggests a sloppy scouting effort. No amount of draft picks will make up for the inability to identify and develop talent. We're signing guys off the street and giving them significant reps (Graham, Owusu, Powell at WR, Adams, Thomas, Williams at CB). That's just hard to stomach, no matter how well these guys end up playing. You don't see good teams doing that at this point in the season.

The critique that NE drafts poorly is only as valid to the extent it is supported by their results, which is obviously not the case. As LIJETFAN points out, the Patriots draft the way they do because they can. They don't expect to hit on every pick, nor do they have to. They have a pretty solid roster as it is, and look to create camp competition. Does having Brady as their QB give them some breathing room when developing offensive talent? Sure, but whining about Brady is like whining about the NY sports media. One of the reasons Brady is so good is that OL--the result of talent identification and development. Besides, the NE defense is looking pretty good these days, and I don't see Brady taking reps on that side of the ball.

You have to be cut to be signed to the practice squad; so yes, George and Saunders were both cut.

As for the Patriots, I feel if they didn't have Brady, they'd have the same record as us and be picking in the top 10 annually with that roster, so we'll have to agree to disagree.  I do feel their secondary pisses all over ours, which is a shame for a Rex Ryan coached team...and I don't feel our defense sucks because Rex somehow forgot how to coach defense as some would imply on this site due to their Idzik love interest; which unfortunately says we're in bed with Patriots in term of how we draft (notice Pats secondary rebuilt through free agency, like how we rebuilt the offense because neither team can draft) and the Raiders with how we operate (cutting the picks practically the day after we draft them).

Superman55 wrote:You have to be cut to be signed to the practice squad; so yes, George and Saunders were both cut.

As for the Patriots, I feel if they didn't have Brady, they'd have the same record as us and be picking in the top 10 annually with that roster, so we'll have to agree to disagree.  I do feel their secondary pisses all over ours, which is a shame for a Rex Ryan coached team...and I don't feel our defense sucks because Rex somehow forgot how to coach defense as some would imply on this site due to their Idzik love interest; which unfortunately says we're in bed with Patriots in term of how we draft (notice Pats secondary rebuilt through free agency, like how we rebuilt the offense because neither team can draft) and the Raiders with how we operate (cutting the picks practically the day after we draft them).

Of course, I stand corrected on the cut->PS definitions. Not thinking clearly at 5am CT.

However, as much as I would like to attribute all the Patriots' decade+ superiority to the luck of the draw WRT to Brady, I'm having a hard time reconciling a few things, although it's an interesting thought. For one, looking at where the two teams stand now, mirror images of each other: 8-2 Patriots, 2-8 Jets. Patriots +105 PD, Jets -91. So the question is whether Tom Brady is responsible for not only a 6-game swing in record but also a combined 195 point differential (19.5 points per game). I agree he's good, but I'm just not sure even he's that good. With our OL and Marty's playcalling, I think he puts fewer points on the board with our offensive roster. The NE defense has allowed 50 fewer points than ours has. Some of those points came off turnovers/short fields, no doubt, but not all. Our defense struggles to get off the field in 3rd and long. Theirs seems to capitalize on it. They're just better. Take away the QB position and it's closer, but I think they still get the nod.

Call me crazy, but I think Percy Harvin would be a top 5 player in the NFL playing with Brady's short passing game. If you compared offensive weapons, I think Harvin would be the #1 weapon between the two teams, then Gronk second best weapon, but then I feel Ivory, Decker, and CJ2k are the next 3 best offensive playmakers between the team.

Sorry, but I feel of Brady had Decker, Harvin, Kerley, Amaro, Cumberland, Ivory, and CJ2k to work with...his short passing game would be on the field all day long and our defense wouldn't give up many points with their 20 minutes of PT most games...

I honestly don't think the Patriots have a solid roster at all, outside of QB and probably TE. They have an aging defensive line that can't stop the run, used their first rounder on a guy with a bad knee (talk about injury-prone). Their secondary was only upgraded because they spent big on aging and suspended players.

Porous offensive line, a bunch of #3 WRs with pretty much no true #1 or #2 - fortunately for them, it plays into their checkdown/dumpoff system. And they have a revolving door at RB, using and then discarding them.

In the early years of the Pats run, the team elevated Brady. But over the last several years, Brady has elevated the team.

I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

GratefulJet wrote:I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

Two reasons the Pats are where they are right now...system and schedule.

Their system is almost perfect at getting the most out of moderate talent. Slot receivers, moderate RBs, all thrive in their system. I would never sign a free agent from the Pats, because I think their numbers are soft.

As for schedule, give them the eight-week stretch the league gave the Jets, and tell me if they are still a two-loss team.

The reason a bunch of no-namers have success at RB is partially due to the fact that defenses are focusing on stopping Brady-Gronk-Edelman. Defenses are on their heels, worried about all that dumping off and sudden strikes down field. It opens up the running game. If I were a marginal RB, I'd love playing on this offense.

Contrast that to the Jets this year under Geno. Opposing defenses keyed (for the most part) on stopping our running game, and allowed Geno to make his mistakes. Mission accomplished.  

Brady may not play defense, but he sure as hell makes life easier on that defense by moving the chains, getting his team into the endzone, and keeping his defense off the field. Great QB's do that, despite an occassional INT. Brady can bounce back from it. Geno? He throws a killer INT, and circles the drain from there on out. Both players have a huge impact on their respective teams. And the proof is in the W-L columns.

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

Two reasons the Pats are where they are right now...system and schedule.

Their system is almost perfect at getting the most out of moderate talent. Slot receivers, moderate RBs, all thrive in their system. I would never sign a free agent from the Pats, because I think their numbers are soft.

As for schedule, give them the eight-week stretch the league gave the Jets, and tell me if they are still a two-loss team.

Well, I'm not going to argue against one word of that, and in fact, I'm not sure what we're arguing about . I agree with all the above and that's my point--it isn't all about the QB, and it isn't about the best collection of individual players. It's the best team. Now, take away Brady and does the whole thing fall apart? Yes, perhaps it does. But that doesn't mean they didn't do a better job of putting together a winning organization for sustainable success. We have to figure out what that looks like for us We don't get to insert Tom Brady at QB. We have to make do with someone else.

GratefulJet wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

Two reasons the Pats are where they are right now...system and schedule.

Their system is almost perfect at getting the most out of moderate talent. Slot receivers, moderate RBs, all thrive in their system. I would never sign a free agent from the Pats, because I think their numbers are soft.

As for schedule, give them the eight-week stretch the league gave the Jets, and tell me if they are still a two-loss team.

Well, I'm not going to argue against one word of that, and in fact, I'm not sure what we're arguing about .  I agree with all the above and that's my point--it isn't all about the QB, and it isn't about the best collection of individual players. It's the best team. Now, take away Brady and does the whole thing fall apart? Yes, perhaps it does. But that doesn't mean they didn't do a better job of putting together a winning organization for sustainable success. We have to figure out what that looks like for us We don't get to insert Tom Brady at QB. We have to make do with someone else.

Well, the main reason the system works is because of Brady. He may not have the best mobility, or the biggest rifle arm in the league, but he is great at making reads and adjustments. Give him time, and he will find the open guy underneath.

I'm not sure it would work with that many QBs...not because of their physical skills, but because of their ability to make the reads. Peyton would thrive in it. But I'm not sure how many other QBs are good enough at reading defenses to do what Brady does. The system makes him, but he also makes the system.

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

Two reasons the Pats are where they are right now...system and schedule.

Their system is almost perfect at getting the most out of moderate talent. Slot receivers, moderate RBs, all thrive in their system. I would never sign a free agent from the Pats, because I think their numbers are soft.

As for schedule, give them the eight-week stretch the league gave the Jets, and tell me if they are still a two-loss team.

Well, I'm not going to argue against one word of that, and in fact, I'm not sure what we're arguing about .  I agree with all the above and that's my point--it isn't all about the QB, and it isn't about the best collection of individual players. It's the best team. Now, take away Brady and does the whole thing fall apart? Yes, perhaps it does. But that doesn't mean they didn't do a better job of putting together a winning organization for sustainable success. We have to figure out what that looks like for us We don't get to insert Tom Brady at QB. We have to make do with someone else.

Well, the main reason the system works is because of Brady. He may not have the best mobility, or the biggest rifle arm in the league, but he is great at making reads and adjustments. Give him time, and he will find the open guy underneath.

I'm not sure it would work with that many QBs...not because of their physical skills, but because of their ability to make the reads. Peyton would thrive in it. But I'm not sure how many other QBs are good enough at reading defenses to do what Brady does. The system makes him, but he also makes the system.

I gotta disagree a little bit about Brady being THE reason for their success. BB is THE biggest reason and that's because he has all of the players attention and with him prepare better than just about everybody else. As much as I hate them they are typically not the most talented players, but the best prepared team on the field. Because of that they win consistently. I honestly don't think Rex would be any more successful with Brady as he is with Vick or Geno. No. 1 he would be injured by now, because we would be running the read option or some other scheme that didn't fit him. BB proved my case when his team didn't skip a beat with Matt Cassell, and was playing WRs at the CB position in the Super Bowl.

I think the point of this discussion, at least from my POV, is that the Jets have good enough talent to win, if only they had a QB of Brady's talent level. Speaking hypothetically, of course, if the Jets have Brady right now, even with the secondary the way it is, and with our current WR's, what is our record?

Probably closer to 7-3.

And John Idzik would look a lot better to fans than he does now. One player. One position. And we're not even talking about John Idzik. A 5th round draft pick who became the luck o' the Patriots is the difference. Don't believe me? Compare the rest of the Patriots roster to ours. Is there a big difference?

Blindsidebrick wrote:I think the point of this discussion, at least from my POV, is that the Jets have good enough talent to win, if only they had a QB of Brady's talent level. Speaking hypothetically, of course, if the Jets have Brady right now, even with the secondary the way it is, and with our current WR's, what is our record?

Probably closer to 7-3.

And John Idzik would look a lot better to fans than he does now. One player. One position. And we're not even talking about John Idzik. A 5th round draft pick who became the luck o' the Patriots is the difference. Don't believe me? Compare the rest of the Patriots roster to ours. Is there a big difference?

I know I sound like a broken record, but the bigger difference is the head coach and the level of professionalism in their preparation (coach and players). I also believe that you are correct in the assessment of our roster and theirs. There is plenty of talent on the Jets roster, its' just not utilized or developed to its full potential.

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:

SackExchange wrote:

GratefulJet wrote:I dunno. Brady's line last night: 19/30, 257 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That doesn't say "42 points" to me. I don't disagree that TB has a huge impact on gameplans or that the threat of his super-efficient short passing game doesn't create opportunities elsewhere. But no sacks--that tells me the OL is figuring things out. 199 yards rushing for Jonas Gray? Who??

Two reasons the Pats are where they are right now...system and schedule.

Their system is almost perfect at getting the most out of moderate talent. Slot receivers, moderate RBs, all thrive in their system. I would never sign a free agent from the Pats, because I think their numbers are soft.

As for schedule, give them the eight-week stretch the league gave the Jets, and tell me if they are still a two-loss team.

Well, I'm not going to argue against one word of that, and in fact, I'm not sure what we're arguing about .  I agree with all the above and that's my point--it isn't all about the QB, and it isn't about the best collection of individual players. It's the best team. Now, take away Brady and does the whole thing fall apart? Yes, perhaps it does. But that doesn't mean they didn't do a better job of putting together a winning organization for sustainable success. We have to figure out what that looks like for us We don't get to insert Tom Brady at QB. We have to make do with someone else.

Well, the main reason the system works is because of Brady. He may not have the best mobility, or the biggest rifle arm in the league, but he is great at making reads and adjustments. Give him time, and he will find the open guy underneath.

I'm not sure it would work with that many QBs...not because of their physical skills, but because of their ability to make the reads. Peyton would thrive in it. But I'm not sure how many other QBs are good enough at reading defenses to do what Brady does. The system makes him, but he also makes the system.

# 1 reason why GOOD QB play is such a rarity in the NFL.

The formula to success in the NFL is easy......getting to that formula is the tough part. The salary cap ensures nobody can have stars at every position. You have to put together the right combo of advanced players that will carry the less advanced. Finding that blend is tough, but it all trickles down from the QB. Less advanced pieces are needed behind an elite QB, but when that position is lacking a bit, you need a higher level of balance across the other units/positions.

It's not much different with the HC and GM. Who they have on the field can help disguise their own shortcomings doing their respective jobs. In the case of John Idzik, he needs a guy(s) with an eye for college talent. Tannenbaum had Mangini and when he left you saw Mike's draft classes wane. Rex has provided no help in that area. In fact, you could argue he has made it worse.

What Idzik has shown so far is he does seem to have an eye for the already proven players and how to obtain them at a reasonable cost. Maybe this is an area that Pete Carroll saw Idzik contribute.

Idzik will have to quickly distance himself from the past couple drafts to change public perception. Whether it was on advice of the scouts or his own eye, he won't survive with drafts providing little to no depth. Make no mistake, the misses from this year in the middle rounds will be felt at some point. There's not enough money to cover the lack of depth on the roster.

looks like i picked a good time to be away from the board...

not much to add to this (or other) threads since i can't say i've been following the jets the last month or so, but just thought i'd say hi to all and figured this thread was as good as any to chime in