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    Idzik's state of the team

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 17:51

    SackExchange wrote:
    Seaver wrote:let's just say Idzik is clueless.......what's the point in seeing this madness going on for another 2 years?  
    Do we know he's clueless? Or has he just not had enough time?

    I mean, if we're going to expect a GM, of all people, to get immediate dividends, we will never build a team. The only way a GM can get immediate dividends is through free agency and trades for veterans.

    A head coach, it's fair to expect some uptick in play pretty immediately, whether it is in coaching up players or game management. But a GM is different. It's a much longer term situation.

    So if every GM who comes to the Jets is going to be expected to win out of the gate, the team will never actually develop homegrown players. Fans want immediate results, but also love homegrown guys. In other words, fans want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    you speak as if the past 3 GMs have been fired after a year or two of service. That's not the case. You are creating this aura of somebody hitting the panic button again and that nobody will work for the team. This is about Idzik. Actually, this may be more about Woody than anyone. If he is happy with a finance guy saving him money, fixing the cap, and flushing his headache Revis.......then he is likely going to be patient.

    My problem is I don't see the progress on the football side. When you figure that ANY GM you go to great lengths to hire should get something right, you have to look beyond the obvious good moves to the more advanced moves a GM needs to make. For example..toss out 1st rd picks as some rallying cry for greatness.......I'd even go past the 2nd round. A good GM will mine players out of those middle rounds. 2 drafts in and who is shaping up as a legit contributor?

    How did Idzik do assessing the needs of the secondary? OL? QB? Now while I will give some credit for getting Decker.........that was more about the money and the market for his wife to broaden her career than Idzik. He brought in a turnover/sack taking machine in Vick. Dmitri Patterson - needs no explanation. His RT just got schooled by Buffalo. What did he do at the end of camp to fortify DB? So he holds his precious salary cap - ignoring obvious needs/holes in secondary due to injury/craziness but decides he's all in on gadget player who costs$6-$7m to rent.

    It's really not about making a case to fire Idzik.........he hasn't made a case to stay.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 17:56

    There are both personnel mistakes and coaching shortcomings. The coaching issues are both in preparation and in gameday decisions.

    Idzik is partly responsible for Geno, for not doing enough at CB, and for waiting too long to produce a legitimate WR corps. He and his scouts are responsible for some bad draft picks outside of Geno, like Saunders, Enunwa, etc.

    Rex is responsible for not having his team ready to play. His players aren't doing enough to prepare. He also makes bad decisions during the course of a game, and has undisciplined players.

    Difference is, Rex is in year 6, both as a HC and with the Jets. Idzik is in year 2.

    As for your list, I disagree somewhat.

    First and foremost, QB needs to be addressed. Then a starting CB needs to come in here, and one on roughly the same level as Milliner. Don't need a shutdown, but it needs to be a #1/2 like Milliner is. With McDougle, you will have your #3, and Wilson, if he is still here, is your depth guy.

    Only then do you address WR. And with Harvin here, I don't think you need a #1 WR. Harvin is a speedy #1/2 type, and Decker a possession #1/2 type. Both guys who are either stretches as #1s or are outstanding #2s. With those two, you don't need a #1 WR. Kerley is an outstanding #3, perhaps could be a #2 on some teams.

    So you have two 1.5 guys and one 2.5 guy. That puts the Jets in the upper half of the league, especially when Amaro is included.

    Guard looks like a need, though I want to see how Aboushi develops. Winters doesn't have it. Colon, while tough, is older and undisciplined. Not sure all three need to be replaced, but one new guard would be welcome.

    To me, there are two huge, glaring holes on this team. Franchise QB and starting caliber CB. The others aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 17:58

    for the record........I do like the concept to rebuild the team........I just have serious doubts that Idzik can pick the right players to make it happen. Maybe it's being jaded by Tanny failing to build/sustain. Tanny rode on Mangini's pick advice.......then it went south after that.... I simply have reservations about a cap guy doing the personnel side adequately. It's not one guy we're talking, we're seeing multiple players being missed on or missed out on. That's the scary part. 12 picks and this guy showed no inclination to move/down/next year.

    Tell you what......if Woody picks a football mind.....that alone buys time.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:05

    Seaver wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    Seaver wrote:let's just say Idzik is clueless.......what's the point in seeing this madness going on for another 2 years?  
    Do we know he's clueless? Or has he just not had enough time?

    I mean, if we're going to expect a GM, of all people, to get immediate dividends, we will never build a team. The only way a GM can get immediate dividends is through free agency and trades for veterans.

    A head coach, it's fair to expect some uptick in play pretty immediately, whether it is in coaching up players or game management. But a GM is different. It's a much longer term situation.

    So if every GM who comes to the Jets is going to be expected to win out of the gate, the team will never actually develop homegrown players. Fans want immediate results, but also love homegrown guys. In other words, fans want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    you speak as if the past 3 GMs have been fired after a year or two of service.  That's not the case.  You are creating this aura of somebody hitting the panic button again and that nobody will work for the team.  This is about Idzik.  Actually, this may be more about Woody than anyone.  If he is happy with a finance guy saving him money, fixing the cap, and flushing his headache Revis.......then he is likely going to be patient.  

    My problem is I don't see the progress on the football side.  When you figure that ANY GM you go to great lengths to hire should get something right, you have to look beyond the obvious good moves to the more advanced moves a GM needs to make.  For example..toss out 1st rd picks as some rallying cry for greatness.......I'd even go past the 2nd round.  A good GM will mine players out of those middle rounds.  2 drafts in and who is shaping up as a legit contributor?

    How did Idzik do assessing the needs of the secondary?  OL?  QB?  Now while I will give some credit for getting Decker.........that was more about the money and the market for his wife to broaden her career than Idzik.  He brought in a turnover/sack taking machine in Vick.  Dmitri Patterson - needs no explanation.  His RT just got schooled by Buffalo.  What did he do at the end of camp to fortify DB?  So he holds his precious salary cap - ignoring obvious needs/holes in secondary due to injury/craziness but decides he's all in on gadget player who costs$6-$7m to rent.  

    It's really not about making a case to fire Idzik.........he hasn't made a case to stay.
    I don't understand this fallacy about Idzik being just a finance guy. He played Ivy League football, coached in college, grew up in a football family with an NFL position coach for a father. Tanny? He didn't have that kind of football background. Why did people start buying into the perception that Idzik is just a bean counter?

    As for later round development, that is true. But the guys who get taken in those rounds are PROJECTS! If they were ready to step in and start right away, they would have gone in the first couple rounds. You need to take a couple years before you evaluate whether he got any good finds in the mid rounds. Obviously, Sanders was a bust, but some guys you just don't know about yet.


    Last edited by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:21; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Seaver on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:13

    SackExchange wrote:There are both personnel mistakes and coaching shortcomings. The coaching issues are both in preparation and in gameday decisions.

    Idzik is partly responsible for Geno, for not doing enough at CB, and for waiting too long to produce a legitimate WR corps. He and his scouts are responsible for some bad draft picks outside of Geno, like Saunders, Enunwa, etc.

    Rex is responsible for not having his team ready to play. His players aren't doing enough to prepare. He also makes bad decisions during the course of a game, and has undisciplined players.

    Difference is, Rex is in year 6, both as a HC and with the Jets. Idzik is in year 2.

    As for your list, I disagree somewhat.

    First and foremost, QB needs to be addressed. Then a starting CB needs to come in here, and one on roughly the same level as Milliner. Don't need a shutdown, but it needs to be a #1/2 like Milliner is. With McDougle, you will have your #3, and Wilson, if he is still here, is your depth guy.

    Only then do you address WR. And with Harvin here, I don't think you need a #1 WR. Harvin is a speedy #1/2 type, and Decker a possession #1/2 type. Both guys who are either stretches as #1s or are outstanding #2s. With those two, you don't need a #1 WR. Kerley is an outstanding #3, perhaps could be a #2 on some teams.

    So you have two 1.5 guys and one 2.5 guy. That puts the Jets in the upper half of the league, especially when Amaro is included.

    Guard looks like a need, though I want to see how Aboushi develops. Winters doesn't have it. Colon, while tough, is older and undisciplined. Not sure all three need to be replaced, but one new guard would be welcome.

    To me, there are two huge, glaring holes on this team. Franchise QB and starting caliber CB. The others aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be.

    Harvin isn't an outside WR..........he doesn't/hasn't had that training going back to his days in Florida where he was a slot/RB type. He's not the answer where they need it most within the WR corps. Personally, I'd take a look at this Cooper kid coming out. Then you have a properly positioned WR group that will aid any QB you draft/sign. i do not rate the Jet receivers nearly as high as you do. Decker is a classic #2. Kerley is #3. Harvin is less than those 2 because he isn't dedicated to either......and he is by no means a #1. He will be too expensive to carry when they need a legit outside threat.

    Guards are bad......and especially on the right side where the RT is average at best.....Colon next to him spells disaster.

    AS for HC.......I'm not campaigning for Rex.........it's time to go. Do I fault him for having garbage at QB for 6 years? Hell no. Wonder how we would view Rex had he been given an average QB. What he has failed at is maintaining discipline. That leads to fundamental breakdowns and those are magnified when you have talent gaps/shortages. So yes, I do put some of the horrible defense on Rex. 3rd downs are abysmal. His DL sets them up for good down/distance spots, only to see it pissed away on 3rd. Too many breakdowns/penalties on top of the poor talent in back 4.

    it doesn't matter that they are 1-7.....or 2-6....or 3-5.......they're a losing team......but if you wanted to break down the BUF game...........Idzik guys with 6 turnovers.

    Count me in the crowd for flushing the whole program........HC, OC, GM, Scouts.....OWNER.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:30

    Seaver wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:There are both personnel mistakes and coaching shortcomings. The coaching issues are both in preparation and in gameday decisions.

    Idzik is partly responsible for Geno, for not doing enough at CB, and for waiting too long to produce a legitimate WR corps. He and his scouts are responsible for some bad draft picks outside of Geno, like Saunders, Enunwa, etc.

    Rex is responsible for not having his team ready to play. His players aren't doing enough to prepare. He also makes bad decisions during the course of a game, and has undisciplined players.

    Difference is, Rex is in year 6, both as a HC and with the Jets. Idzik is in year 2.

    As for your list, I disagree somewhat.

    First and foremost, QB needs to be addressed. Then a starting CB needs to come in here, and one on roughly the same level as Milliner. Don't need a shutdown, but it needs to be a #1/2 like Milliner is. With McDougle, you will have your #3, and Wilson, if he is still here, is your depth guy.

    Only then do you address WR. And with Harvin here, I don't think you need a #1 WR. Harvin is a speedy #1/2 type, and Decker a possession #1/2 type. Both guys who are either stretches as #1s or are outstanding #2s. With those two, you don't need a #1 WR. Kerley is an outstanding #3, perhaps could be a #2 on some teams.

    So you have two 1.5 guys and one 2.5 guy. That puts the Jets in the upper half of the league, especially when Amaro is included.

    Guard looks like a need, though I want to see how Aboushi develops. Winters doesn't have it. Colon, while tough, is older and undisciplined. Not sure all three need to be replaced, but one new guard would be welcome.

    To me, there are two huge, glaring holes on this team. Franchise QB and starting caliber CB. The others aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be.

    Harvin isn't an outside WR..........he doesn't/hasn't had that training going back to his days in Florida where he was a slot/RB type.  He's not the answer where they need it most within the WR corps.  Personally, I'd take a look at this Cooper kid coming out.  Then you have a properly positioned WR group that will aid any QB you draft/sign.  i do not rate the Jet receivers nearly as high as you do.  Decker is a classic #2.  Kerley is #3.  Harvin is less than those 2 because he isn't dedicated to either......and he is by no means a #1.  He will be too expensive to carry when they need a legit outside threat.

    Guards are bad......and especially on the right side where the RT is average at best.....Colon next to him spells disaster.

    AS for HC.......I'm not campaigning for Rex.........it's time to go.  Do I fault him for having garbage at QB for 6 years?  Hell no.  Wonder how we would view Rex had he been given an average QB.  What he has failed at is maintaining discipline.  That leads to fundamental breakdowns and those are magnified when you have talent gaps/shortages.  So yes, I do put some of the horrible defense on Rex.  3rd downs are abysmal.  His DL sets them up for good down/distance spots, only to see it pissed away on 3rd.  Too many breakdowns/penalties on top of the poor talent in back 4.

    it doesn't matter that they are 1-7.....or 2-6....or 3-5.......they're a losing team......but if you wanted to break down the BUF game...........Idzik guys with 6 turnovers.

    Count me in the crowd for flushing the whole program........HC, OC, GM, Scouts.....OWNER.
    When Harvin was in Minnesota, he had 60, 71, 87, and (in an injury-shortened season) 62 receptions. I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for, but if that is just a gimmick player who can't contribute much at WR, then I must be missing something. To say Harvin isn't even a #3 sounds like a bias against him just because Idzik made a good trade for him. It's trying to diminish him to help your case against Idzik.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by jetkwondo on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:40

    Rich Eisen tells it like it is.....

    http://www.nfl.com/now/share?id=6a54c96f-277d-4f11-9144-a5120d2641b9

    It's worth a listen!
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by NYJETSDAN16 on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 18:56

    jetkwondo wrote:Rich Eisen tells it like it is.....

    http://www.nfl.com/now/share?id=6a54c96f-277d-4f11-9144-a5120d2641b9

    It's worth a listen!


    EXCELLENT!!
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by NYJETSDAN16 on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 19:36

    John Idzik Mid-Year Press Conference//[url=John Idzik Mid-Year Press Conference]John Idzik Mid-Year Press Conference[/url]

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by soj on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 20:14

    Like LIJETFAN I have serious doubts also... I hear the rational from you guys but I also heard no answers from him today... or Rex in his presser.  

    Now that doesn't mean he is not capable but there is a BUT we just do not know... so we stay the course like Sack said or we cut bait and move on.  I said above I was tired of the dysfunction and maybe I should have said they miscalculated the team ability to overcome mistakes and keeping REX.  I thought last year with the way they finished they had turned the corner - coaching and players.  I was mistaken also...

    The plan for this year failed at CB and QB.  But like Skop states our talent isn't as bad as the record would indicate...  

    Its all on Woody guys... not us.  He made the choices and like us is living the nightmare so we'll see what he does.  

    I will say one final thing if they play as poorly as they did this week in the remaining games and its out of reach by 3rd Q, I be tuning out and watching other teams play since I have Direct TV NFL package something I never thought I would say but I just can not sit through this crap anymore...

    Time to man up Rex get you team ready to play even if they lose in KC at least get them ready to play will ya... sad and disgusted.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Old#15 on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 21:50

    I've raised this question before, but it can't be ignored when evaluating the Jets' personnel procurement staff - Do you think Rex Ryan can be trusted in developing young players? He's been here 6 years and aside from the DLine he and his staff have fumbled all of his high draft picks. You can blame Bradway, Tannebaum and Idzik all you want, but Rex personally works a lot of the high picks out himself before the cards are turned in. Rex was good with veterans his first two years, but has done nothing with draftees during is tenure.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Sarge on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 22:45

    I thought Idzik came across as sincere and thoughtful in his comments. Really an amazing level of authenticity that you rarely see. Few other NFL GMs would be so real. But, that's not the prevailing narrative so I'll no hang up and listen
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 22:48

    You guys who are cynical of Idzik are right to be concerned by his decisions. He has made some decisions that have likewise concerned me.

    That said, I think it should be an organizational philosophy to allow for a system to take hold, to try to see something - anything - through. Yes, the organization was too slow in pulling the trigger on Sanchez. But a shift in organizational philosophy takes time. I wouldn't want to see the plug pulled halfway through.

    Let's not change the front office for the sake of change. It's understandable to have concerns, but Idzik deserves more of a leash than 1 1/2 years with a coach he inherited. If there is no significant improvement in the foundation into his second year with his own coach, then it's time for a new philosophy - or at least a new philosopher.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 22:50

    Sarge wrote:I thought Idzik came across as sincere and thoughtful in his comments.  Really an amazing level of authenticity that you rarely see. Few other NFL GMs would be so real.  But, that's not the prevailing narrative so I'll no hang up and listen
    He's a Jet, therefore it's a circus.

    If he was stoic and lacked emotion, the narrative would be that he didn't care.

    Since he showed emotion, the narrative is that he's too emotional and he's just another example of the circus.

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Metjetgal on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 22:56

    The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 23:27

    Metjetgal wrote:The media always gets dramatic with the Jets. Idzik gets one more year. He needs a big offseason. Honestly, the one thing he has to do is find a franchise Qb. If somehow he can do that, he'll be just fine.
    If he solves the franchise QB problem and the team shows improvement...not even playoffs, necessarily, but around .500...then he has the franchise back on the right track.

    Right now, the choice of the next QB of the Jets is absolutely critical. The wrong choice, and it will end Idzik's Jets career. The right choice, and he's the man.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by football51 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 0:37

    I honestly don't know what people expect to hear in these press conferences. Answers? What team/gm/coach ever publicly provides those? I also can't grasp the idea that "Idzik gets one more year". If he stays and hires a new coach, he's getting a heck of a lot more than one year. As far as his drafts are concerned, I always chuckle that when players perform well right away(Richardson), the cynics tell us "don't put him in Canton yet. Drafts are evaluated after three seasons". Conversely, when players struggle, those same people throw out terms like bust. We have no idea what caliber NFL players Evans, Enunwa, McDougle, etc are going to become. ESPECIALLY when they haven't been given a chance to perform. I've said it before, but it took until year three for Demario Davis to show some real promise. Fans are angry and want instant gratification all the way around.



    The Jets are 15-25 over the last 3 years and that's 6th worst in the NFL. The 5 teams who were worse have fired at least 1 HC since then. This pretty much sums it up, yet some want to trash the guy whose been here for 24 games and is unable to wave his magic wand and fix a roster that was eroding over multiple seasons.




    · Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets 10h 10 hours ago

    #Jets are right back to Thanksgiving 2012. Did that with completely different cast around Rex. Let's give him another GM, QB, OC, DC though





    I also agree with Sack and question those who refer to Idzik as a number's guy. It seems like you're just repeating a media fallacy. He's played and coached the game and worked in every administrative level possible in the NFL. Tannenbaum was a number's guy with a law degree.




    Rebuilds(at least one's that are done right) take time. Look at the Seahawks(7-9 back to back years), the 49er's, etc. If you want to put a band aid on things, you get the 2011 NY Jets. I'd rather the team struggle initially now, but get it right for the long haul.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 7:06

    I agree that Idzik seems sincere and is following the tough path by sticking to the plan. So far, the plan is not looking very good, but I realize that can happen in the short term. There are some very large talent gaps on this team that need to be filled. Aside from QB, which is looking like a debacle right now, you have an aging OL that aside from C is springing leaks everywhere. WR was one of two major areas of concern and despite 12 draft picks we have none at WR on the roster from the 2014 draft. TE looks better with Amaro, who just needs to work on his blocking and catching the easy passes. The DL is playing well, but behind them things are held together by twine and gum. The LB corps is mediocre at best, and only because QC is part of that group--they'd be awful without him. The secondary is possibly the worst in the NFL. It's not Idzik's fault Milliner and McDougle are out for the year, and losing them hurts, but it was going to be a dicey proposition even if they were both healthy. The NFL is a very physical place to play, even at CB, and those guys are just a little brittle. Idzik needs to find some tough customers to play back there, stat.

    It could turn around next year. Maybe Idzik has stockpiled all this cap space to pursue certain FA in the off-season: Dez Bryant will be unrestricted. That's the sort of guy we need to add at WR. OL is another area where it will many years to fix through the draft, so they better be looking at FA. The big piece is obviously QB. Mariota is intriguing and we just might be bad enough now to have a shot at him. Otherwise, the only QB even remotely looking like a 1st round pick is Connor Cook. This is not shaping up to be a great QB draft.

    There's a lot to fix. I know Idzik has a plan. I hope he has the skill to evaluate players and execute the plan. There are no players after the 2nd round from his 2014 draft making a contribution right now. I realize you don't often find starters in the 7th round, and young guys take a while to develop, but honestly, none of the guys 4th round and down are even on the radar. We had 3 4th rounders: Idzik has already cut Saunders, which is a terrible indictment of that selection. Evans the WR is out for the year injured, and Dozier the OL is a project. Jeremiah George, the 5th round pick, was signed off our practice squad by Jax. That's simply bad roster management. CB Brandon Dixon, the first of 4 6th rounders, has already been released and picked up by Tampa Bay. The rest are also non-factors one way or the other. So there are as many guys 4th round and down now on other teams' rosters as there are on ours. With 12 picks, I would have thought we'd have nailed a couple of late rounders. That is starting to look unlikely.

    The 2013 draft class is even less distinguished. Putting aside Milliner, Richardson, and Smith, 5th round OG Aboushi is starting due to injury to 3rd rd OG Winters, who was terrible anyway, and Aboushi looks not much better so far. Campbell has yet to see the field, and Bohannon has been a mediocre FB. Only good things about that draft were Sheldon in the 1st and trading the 4th for Ivory.

    Coaching staff needs a shakeup. I don't think Marty is the answer at OC. His playcalling and utilization of personnel are puzzling to say the least. We are 28th in the league on points scored. Defensively, we are 30th in the league in points allowed. We've been blown out on numerous occasions. Why do we have to get so bad before we can get better?

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Old#15 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 7:31

    jetkwondo wrote:Rich Eisen tells it like it is.....

    http://www.nfl.com/now/share?id=6a54c96f-277d-4f11-9144-a5120d2641b9

    It's worth a listen!

    Eisen lost me when he spins the now familiar media narrative that Idzik can't draft, and uses Amaro as one of his examples. The stats tell a different story even with the pathetic QBing that we've gotten.

    Joe Caporoso retweeted

    Ian Rapoport @RapSheet · 12h 12 hours ago

    Going over #Jets stats: Amazing that rookie TE Jace Amaro has 32 catches for 285 yd (7th at position, 2nd on team) with QB play. All-rookie?
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 7:53

    That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9. Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:38

    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by GratefulJet on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:42

    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.

    I stated that Amaro alone doesn't prove Idzik runs a good draft. Are you disagreeing?

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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by Old#15 on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:44

    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.

    There are a lot of ways to spin these arguments. All three of the examples you give are on at least practice squads elsewhere, so its' not like they were complete busts. In fact they may become valuable contributors elsewhere with the right coaching and situation, and the same people who bemoan Idzik's drafting acumen will say we should have stashed them on the roster. As with most developmental picks they weren't ready to contribute this year. If they were protected on the active roster people would have complained about taking up valuable space with guys who won't be ready for a year or two. You can't have it both ways, or all three ways Smile. Also guys like Evans, McDougle, Dozier and Enunwa were in the opinion of many draft evaluators very good value. What if they pop in years 2 or 3 as some developmental players do? Bottom line it is too early to tell definitively how both of Idzik's drafts will pan out. He came in with a long term plan, but is unfortunately being judged by those who can't see past the beer or keyboard sitting in front of them. He also came into a job handicapped by a very thin and expensive roster and a head coach who has done very little in developing young players in the preceding four seasons. Ryan won with free agents and players drafted before his time with the Jets, and his teams have won about 30% of the time since. When is Ryan going to be judged as harshly as Idzik?
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:51

    GratefulJet wrote:
    SackExchange wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.
    But how many second rounders, Jets and otherwise, haven't been productive?

    I don't see how Idzik's better early round picks should just be discounted because they're early round picks. Lots of early picks don't pan out.

    So far, Amaro has more catches than other TEs drafted around and before him, like Seferian-Jenkins or Niklas, and WRs taken before and around him, like Matthews and Richardson. So yes, I think that does count toward him.

    I stated that Amaro alone doesn't prove Idzik runs a good draft. Are you disagreeing?
    No, I'm not disagreeing. But I also think that the jury is still out on Pryor and on several others. McDougle? Who knows what Shaq Evans is? And last year, Richardson wasn't awful. Milliner could be a starter for years if he stays on the field. When Winters falters, Aboushi is there to step in.

    My main disagreement is with your dismissal of good early picks. You act like these should be givens, and not count toward Idzik, when we have seen both the Jets and other teams have awful first and second round picks.
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    Re: Idzik's state of the team

    Post by SackExchange on Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:55

    Old#15 wrote:
    GratefulJet wrote:That Amaro is productive is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise gloomy picture. Frankly, a 2nd round pick should be productive his rookie year. That's just a fact of this league now. A better test of drafting acumen is how many 4th and lower picks become productive players, and how quickly. So far, there haven't really been any at all. Granted, it's still early, but there aren't any "gems in waiting" on the horizon that I can see. So far, I just don't see how anyone can give Idzik a good draft grade. He should have traded up here and there to improve quality: three guys he took in 2014 (Saunders, George, Dixon) are already gone. So 12 picks is already down to 9.  Those three could have been trade fodder of some kind. That's very poor roster/asset management. Hope the drafting turns around in 2015. We're going to have some valuable picks.

    There are a lot of ways to spin these arguments.  All three of the examples you give are on at least practice squads elsewhere, so its' not like they were complete busts.  In fact they may become valuable contributors elsewhere with the right coaching and situation, and the same people who bemoan Idzik's drafting acumen will say we should have stashed them on the roster.  As with most developmental picks they weren't ready to contribute this year.   If they were protected on the active roster people would have complained about taking up valuable space with guys who won't be ready for a year or two.  You can't have it both ways, or all three ways  Smile.  Also guys like Evans, McDougle, Dozier and Enunwa were in the opinion of many draft evaluators very good value.  What if they pop in years 2 or 3 as some developmental players do?  Bottom line it is too early to tell definitively how both of Idzik's drafts will pan out.  He came in with a long term plan, but is unfortunately being judged by those who can't see past the beer or keyboard sitting in front of them.  He also came into a job handicapped by a very thin and expensive roster and a head coach who has done very little in developing young players in the preceding four seasons.   Ryan won with free agents and players drafted before his time with the Jets, and his teams have won about 30% of the time since.  When is Ryan going to be judged as harshly as Idzik?  
    The problem is, with Jets fans and the media, just like GMs are hanged in effigy before they can actually implement a plan, draft picks are judged before they have a chance to develop.

    Essentially, Jets fans and the media rally around homegrown guys, but they don't want to wait for young players to develop. They don't want to wait on a player-by-player basis, and they don't want to wait for a rebuild. So any GM who comes here is thrust into a win-now mentality, and can only do that by trading picks for veterans and signing free agents. Of course, since those guys aren't homegrown, fans complain about not developing talent, even though they are the ones who refuse to wait for talent to develop.

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